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August 07, 2007
Who Is "Everybody Else?"
David Frum has an interesting post up responding to allegations of nativism and calling his arguments "too true for journalism." His original post, which kicked up a bit of a furor, fretted that Hispanic youth overwhelmingly support the Democrats, and that Bush's inability or unwillingness to close the borders has allowed the migration of an eventual voting bloc that is is not rich enough and not mindlessly patriotic enough to be effectively courted by the GOP -- and thus might destroy them. This, Frum suggested, will be Bush's legacy to his party.
My initial thought was that this said worrying things about the basis for the GOP's appeal, but others found Frum's points a bit racist. Thus, Frum's rejoinder. In it, he says that "I did not say or imply that the children and grandchildren of Mexican migrants 'couldn't possibly develop a deep attachment to the American nation.' I trust and hope that they can and will. But it would be blind and unwise to ignore the evidence that these hopes are coming to fruition far more slowly than one would wish." But his evidence is, to put it mildly, unconvincing.
Frum draws on a set of polls from PublicAgenda.org that measured the attitudes of Hispanic immigrants. His first piece of evidence is that "Mexican immigrants are significantly less likely than other immigrants to cite "freedom" as something they value in the United States - or as a reason for their desire to migrate." But that's not what the poll shows:
Nothing in there suggests that Mexican immigrants don't value freedom" -- it just suggests that freedom is not America's "most important" advantage so far as they're concerned. This poll is testing which values hold primacy, not which exist. And because Mexican immigrants come from a far poorer country than do the general pool of immigrants (many of whom emigrate from Europe Asia, etc), it's deeply unsurprising that their ability to vastly improve their economic situation is so salient. But that says nothing whatsoever as to whether they also value things like "freedom." And even with all this said, the difference is responses mild: 14%. Indeed, I wonder what you'd get if you asked the same question of the native born.
What's interesting is how Frum's argument develops here (italics mine): "People who feel in some way disaffected from or alienated from the American mainstream are the people most likely to vote Democratic....Once Mexican migrants become American citizens, they become Americans. Full stop. They have the rights of Americans and the duties of Americans. They "count" just as much as anyone else. But it defies the evidence to suggest that they will feel the same way - or vote the same way - as everybody else. For at least a generation to come, and perhaps two, Mexican-Americans will be significantly poorer than the national norm - and almost certainly more uncertain about their identity."
This is weird. It's banal to say that minorities and the poor -- in other words, the "disaffected"-- disproportionately cast their votes for Democrats, who have a history of championing their causes, as we just saw in the immigration debate. What's striking, though, is Frum's subtle, possibly unconscious, transition from saying that to saying voting for Democrats is in some way aberrational or outside the norm.
Democrats took home a majority of votes in the last election, and lost by 3 percent in 2004. But to vote Democratic just became to not vote like "everybody else." Everyone else can't logically refer to the Republicans' numeric superiority, so it's hard to conclude anything save that it refers to their demographic superiority -- that the mass voting for Republicans is more authentically American than the "marginalized" who're voting for Democrats. And that's toeing quite close to saying something very ugly.
August 7, 2007 in Immigration | Permalink
Comments
Has Frum never heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?
Posted by: James F. Elliott | Aug 7, 2007 2:47:21 PM
Mexicans are being compared to immigrants from countries with far more oppressive regimes than Mexico's.
If you came to America from, say, a Communist country, obviously you'd feel really strongly about the personal freedoms you enjoy here. That doesn't mean Mexicans don't care about freedom, it just means they don't care as strongly as people who have actually lived under totalitarian governments.
Posted by: Steve | Aug 7, 2007 2:57:51 PM
His first piece of evidence is that "Mexican immigrants are significantly less likely than other immigrants to cite "freedom" as something they value in the United States - or as a reason for their desire to migrate.
Seriously, people who supported this Administration in '04--post-Padilla policy, for gawd's sake--ought not be questioning other people's commitment to freedom. What level of gall do you have to have to do that? Jeebus.
Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Aug 7, 2007 3:00:28 PM
What's striking, though, is Frum's subtle, possibly unconscious, transition from saying that to saying voting for Democrats is in some way aberrational or outside the norm.
I don't see that. "Everybody else" refers to how others vote on the whole, i.e. less Democratic than Mexican immigrants and their kids. No implication of aberration.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 3:02:12 PM
Your conclusion makes sense, but I don't think it's necessary to read it that way. In fact, my interpretation of Frum's comments make them almost equally banal throughout. To wit:
The whole "Hollywood liberals," "academic elites," etc. thing is a frame through which conservatives paint themselves as "real Americans" and everybody else as not. It's never struck me as a racist sentiment so much as an anti-elite elitist one. The two may go hand-in-hand, but one is certainly primary in the minds of most who adopt the frame. They're the real America, and the rest of us be damned. Minority? White? Immigrant? Native-born? Woman? Man? It doesn't really matter. If you aren't a Republican, you're not a real American. The party of Spiro Agnew is alive and well.
It just so happens that in this case, he's talking about a specific class of immigrants who vote for Democrats when they get the opportunity. Ergo: not real Americans. It seems to me that Frum thinks their marginalization is almost coincidental to that fact, unless one considers "Upper West Side liberals" (to use another one of their pathetic tropes) to be marginalized.
Posted by: jhupp | Aug 7, 2007 3:03:55 PM
I'm going to second whomever mentioned Masow's Hierarchy of Needs. Frankly, if I have just immigrated from a much poorer nation, then I'm going to be a bit more worried about improving my economic situation than I am about some ethereal, vague idea of "freedom."
Posted by: Jamelle | Aug 7, 2007 3:54:10 PM
Frumph! The GOP has used their dog whistle on 'non-Americans' so often that it's becoming more audible for real people, day by day.
The whistle is kinda shrill and whiney if you can hear it.
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Aug 7, 2007 3:58:50 PM
Isn't Frum a Nucklandian? Who the hell is he to say who's a real Gringolandian and who isn't?
Posted by: Tom Hilton | Aug 7, 2007 4:02:05 PM
The "outside the norm" makes sense to me... it comes from the idea that "People who feel in some way disaffected from or alienated from the American mainstream are the people most likely to vote Democratic". If we assume that feelings are correlated with Frum's reality, the conclusion follows that voting Democratic is an indicator that someone is outside the American mainstream. (Not a guarantee, just an indicator.) And that is indeed an ugly conclusion - it implicitly defines the mainstream to exclude people who tend to vote Democratic.
Posted by: John | Aug 7, 2007 4:05:05 PM
So, let's see now, Hispanics, who get stopped, searched, and arrested far more often per capita than white people, don't list "personal freedoms" as highly, as a reason to come to America, as a white immigrant who belongs to a fundamentalist religion.
Wow, that's a real surprise.
When it comes to political freedom, however, the figures are the same.
Posted by: serial catowner | Aug 7, 2007 4:10:50 PM
"People who feel in some way disaffected from or alienated from the American mainstream are the people most likely to vote Democratic". If we assume that feelings are correlated with Frum's reality, the conclusion follows that voting Democratic is an indicator that someone is outside the American mainstream. (Not a guarantee, just an indicator.) And that is indeed an ugly conclusion - it implicitly defines the mainstream to exclude people who tend to vote Democratic.
Gays are, as a group, among the most highly likely to vote Democratic. It doesn't follow that voting Democratic is an indicator of being gay. Frum doesn't say or imply or suggest that voting Democratic is outside the mainstream.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 4:24:57 PM
...that's toeing quite close to saying something very ugly.
I wish I could find this online, but it's not available (if anybody tracks it down, let me know!). There was a 2000 National Review article after Gore conceded that made an argument for Bush's legitimacy based on a very similar principle. In short, the argument here was that even though Gore won the popular vote, Bush was the choice of majority groups in America. So, while Gore overwhelmingly won non-Christian voters, Bush won a majority of Christian voters, which are after all a majority. While Gore won big in union households, Bush won narrowly in the larger non-union-household vote. While Gore won huge margins among minorities, Bush won white voters. It was pretty explicit in saying, "yeah, Gore got more votes but we got more votes of real normal people."
It's the same kind of argument you see when pundits say, "Democrats depend on black voters," as though that somehow de-legitimizes them.
Posted by: SDM | Aug 7, 2007 4:27:07 PM
It makes Frum's point much more convincing that Republicans have consistently supported freedom in the form of civil liberties, and have consistently downgraded "the opportunity to work and make a living" as a "capitalist conceit."
Posted by: Justin | Aug 7, 2007 4:28:03 PM
A little racist? Are you kidding me? It's about as racist as you can get without actually descending into epithet.
His central point, that Democratic voters are somehow more "alienated" and "disaffected" than Republican voters, is TOTALLY wrong. Take the last election. Mainline Protestants who earned between $50,000 and $100,000--hardly the stereotype of a disaffected and alienated group--voted for the Democrats. It was Evangelicals in the same income bracket, who often complain about losing their children to the mainstream culture, who voted Republican. Sorry, who's appealing to "disaffected" voters?
And frankly, every ethnic, religious, whatever group is by definition "disaffected" from the mainstream to some extent--that's why you can sort them into a group! Suggesting that people's default setting is to vote Republican, and only when they get sufficiently "disaffected" do they then vote Democratic...no.
It's especially offensive when one considers that Republican votes are disproportionately male, white and rich. And the richer you get, the more Republican you get, across the board. Seriously, by his math if you're a white guy who worries about garage fees for your Lear Jet, you're by definition less alienated from the mainstream than a black schoolteacher who worries about how to put her kids through college. You're less disaffected than a WASP living in Missouri who is a regional sales manager. Are you kidding me on this?
And, finally, can I just point out that the poll he cherry picked his meaningless "freedom" stat from not only fails to support his point that Mexicans are somehow "less American", but actually disproves it.
If you read to the bottom, you see that compared to other immigrants, many more Mexican immigrants think America is better than their home country when it comes to important things: women's rights, fair legal system, education, health care, honest government, better place to raise a family. Mexican immigrants love our values more than other immigrants.
So, even rolling with his loaded dice, he came up with nothing.
Posted by: anonymous | Aug 7, 2007 4:43:22 PM
His central point, that Democratic voters are somehow more "alienated" and "disaffected" than Republican voters, is TOTALLY wrong.
It's also not his central point, nor really his point at all. You have his premise backwards, which is that the disaffected and alienated from the mainstream are more likely to vote Democratic, a view that many Democrats proudly embrace, as the champions of the marginalized. (He also discusses evidence that Democrats are more likely to feel alienated from the mainstream, which can be made into evidence for his premise but isn't essential to it or his conclusion, which is that Mexican immigrants and their kids will support Democrats more than other groups will.) Whether it's true or not is a further question. Some conservatives also feel alienated from the mainstream, as you point out. But they may be the exception here.
Seriously, by his math if you're a white guy who worries about garage fees for your Lear Jet, you're by definition less alienated from the mainstream than a black schoolteacher who worries about how to put her kids through college. You're less disaffected than a WASP living in Missouri who is a regional sales manager. Are you kidding me on this?
He's not kidding you about it because he isn't saying it.
I agree that his evidence isn't strong, but his point may well be true, and it isn't the offensive stuff some are reading into it, at least not for the reasons given.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 5:17:30 PM
"Gays are, as a group, among the most highly likely to vote Democratic. It doesn't follow that voting Democratic is an indicator of being gay. Frum doesn't say or imply or suggest that voting Democratic is outside the mainstream."
Bullshit. Christian fundamentalists are "disaffected or alienated from the mainstream", but they're among the most highly likely to vote Republican. People who want to overturn Roe vs Wade are outside the mainstream, and they're among the most highly likely to vote Democratic. What Frum means is that people who aren't white men are likely to vote Democratic, and people who aren't white men aren't "mainstream".
Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Aug 7, 2007 5:59:41 PM
Eh. I think what is really going on here is that the GOP is afraid that these trends are going to kill them and they're looking for excuses. So Frum is casting about for an explanation of how this is just unfair for the poor old GOP. Does From think 'real' Americans vote Republicans. Of course. Does he like dirty Mexicans? Hell no. But I don't know if I'd call the post/article racist. There are a bunch of people moving to this country that will vote against the people he supports. Of course he doesn't like it.
Posted by: mpowell | Aug 7, 2007 6:34:34 PM
Ginger, I can't see how what you say is supposed to relate to what you quoted from me. I also don't think your conclusion about Frum follows from your premises, for the reasons already given.
I think what is really going on here is that the GOP is afraid that these trends are going to kill them and they're looking for excuses.
That must be why Frum's new book in which he will expand on these ideas is called Comeback: Conservatism That Can Win Again.
Does From think 'real' Americans vote Republicans. Of course. Does he like dirty Mexicans? Hell no.
None of this can be rightly inferred from what he said.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 7:30:16 PM
Hispanics, particularly Mexican-Americans, have long been over-represented in the US military, even when income, education, etc., are controlled for. Anyone who's ever spent time in their communities can testify that military service is widely regarded as an especially honorable thing. Whatever else that might say, it hardly shows an attenuated attachment to the nation.
Posted by: K | Aug 7, 2007 9:24:46 PM
This post really changed my mind! And, that's surprising, considering that Ezra has little life experience, is currently a sheltered MSM-like blogger inside the Beltway, and comes from a (no doubt) sheltered existence in "the OC".
Thanks Ezra for the epiphany!
Well, I have to get to work amending those thousands of posts at my site dealing with this general issue which point out how today's imm is different from yesterday's, the hyper-aggressive actions of the MexicanGovernment, the FifthColumnists inside the DemocraticParty and non profits linked to that government, and so forth.
However, just to be on the safe side, would Ezra be willing to post a bond that he's right? For instance, if he's right he gets the money for the bond back. If it turns out he's wrong, he and all his descendents lose everything. A little harsh, but we're playing for high stakes here, too high to risk on the words of a whippersnapper.
Posted by: TLB | Aug 7, 2007 11:03:49 PM
Parsing that dumb twat David Frum is like trying to catch air with a butterfly net.
Amazing that he has any respect, let alone support, on the Right. Actually, it's not that amazing when one stops to think about it.
Posted by: binny | Aug 8, 2007 9:17:10 AM
"However, just to be on the safe side, would Ezra be willing to post a bond that he's right?"
Right about what? He made no predictions.
You're a real one-trick pony, aren't you.
"Well, I have to get to work amending those thousands of posts at my site dealing with this general issue which point out how today's imm is different from yesterday's,"
Why not save yourself time and effort and recycle pamphlets from 19th century Know-Nothings, about how the Papist Irish immigrants from the famine where going to undermine our freedoms and the livelihood of Protestant Americans.
As Hispanics are also mostly Catholic, the cut-and-pasting shouldn't be too challenging for you.
Posted by: Sock Puppet of the Great Satan | Aug 8, 2007 10:13:08 AM
As Hispanics are also mostly Catholic, the cut-and-pasting shouldn't be too challenging for you.
I wouldn't bet on that.
Posted by: Col Bat Guano | Aug 8, 2007 11:29:55 PM
"Why not save yourself time and effort and recycle pamphlets from 19th century Know-Nothings, about how the Papist Irish immigrants from the famine where going to undermine our freedoms and the livelihood of Protestant Americans."
So i suppose bringing up the fact that scientists were once wrong about global cooling shows that scientists are wrong about global warming now? That would be pretty asinine wouldn't it? Why not evaluate the arguments against today's situation based on the facts about todays situation?
Posted by: pjgoober | Aug 9, 2007 9:35:15 PM
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