« Does Experience Matter? | Main | Beer Snobbery »

May 11, 2007

Blogospheric Venom

Matt wonders what the Post op-ed section is for, and whether its apparent acceptance of discredited neocons like Richard Perle is cause enough for bloggers to be mean to Fred Hiatt. Because, see, here's the thing: Richard Perle might have helped lead America into a murderous, destructive war, but when you say mean things to Fred Hiatt and his colleague, it really hurts their feelings. And that's just uncalled for!

Slightly more seriously, part of the problem with blogospheric civility is that bloggers aren't addressing their posts to folks like Hiatt. They're writing for an imagined audience composed mainly of liberals who are shut-out of Washington Post editorial meetings but appalled by what emerges from them. The tone such an audience demands is not terrifically genteel. That said, these posts get back to -- or are sought out by -- their ostensible targets, who confuse a critique written for them with a critique written about them. And thus they get deeply offended by the tone.

This has actually worked out rather well for the blogosphere, as harsh, public critiques register more effectively than polite, private ones. Writing for audiences of liberals but being disproportionately read by serious media types has probably done quite a bit to enhance their efficacy. That's not to say a string of curse words and racial slurs is effective, but a bit of rhetorical punch that might have been excised had you been writing a direct e-mail to the offending columnist is worthwhile. The media folks are upset about the venom because it hurts them. And whether they realize it or not, people try to avoid things that hurt them. And so insofar as the blogosphere would like mainstream pundits to write less offensive, wrongheaded columns, this has all worked in their favor. Media complaints about the venom are, in some ways, the proof.

May 11, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

This reminds me of when the media made a big deal about Alito's wife crying during the confirmation hearings because she felt the Senators weren't treating her husband nicely, and the Senators, as I remember, backed off a bit. I remembered thinking only in Washington could a guy who would be deciding the basic rights of 300 million people be given a pass because his wife got weepy. It shows their priorities, doesn't it?

Posted by: akaison | May 11, 2007 3:42:13 PM

insofar as the blogosphere would like mainstream pundits to write less offensive, wrongheaded columns, this has all worked in their favor. Media complaints about the venom are, in some ways, the proof.

No, proof of that would be better columns along the lines argued for in the blogosphere. What you're talking about is actually proof of one of the drawbacks of venom, that it often attracts attention to itself more effectively than to its ostensive message. That is, it can, and when it's extreme, more often than not actually does distract from the message. Rhetorical punch is often a good thing, but venom usually has counterproductive effects. (You're better about this than I am, probably.)

Posted by: Sanpete | May 11, 2007 3:50:59 PM

But, Sanpete, even Chait in his article admitted that, e.g., Joe Klein's writing has been less objectionable since he started getting hammered on Swampland. I'm sure the same is true of many columnists.

Posted by: Dan Miller | May 11, 2007 4:04:35 PM

Dan, Joe Klein's case would be proof (OK, we should be saying "evidence") that getting criticism at your own blog can influence you, perhaps. My point, in any case, wasn't that blogospheric venom has no good effects (though on balance I think the effects are decidedly negative), only that what Ezra cited, i.e. complaints about the venom, aren't evidence for the effects claimed.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 11, 2007 4:17:00 PM

Meant to add at the end "but rather for the side effects I mentioned."

Posted by: Sanpete | May 11, 2007 4:19:18 PM

Point taken--apologies for missing it originally.

Posted by: Dan Miller | May 11, 2007 5:15:16 PM

Racial slurs?

Posted by: Eric | May 11, 2007 5:32:44 PM

Winning last year was an indication of good effect from having dedicated people who actually give a damn rather than see this all as intellectual masturbation. The same is true of the issues being debated. It's forcing the issues to be discussed in a different way. The MSM looks here as well as other sources now. So do candidates. That alone is a bigger victory than all the combined discussions over fake concerns over civility put together. Civility has its place. So does venom. Saying that one doesn't see it is bogus because willful denial of existence isn't a position that one can convince another person from having. In fact, it's a waste of time even trying to argue with such a position in that it is virtually the same as belief.

Posted by: akaison | May 11, 2007 6:11:22 PM

"Rhetorical punch is often a good thing, but venom usually has counterproductive effects."

I think this is especially true when it sets the tone for blog commentors' contributions. In my experience writing a progressive college group blog, barb trading and snark tend to deter women from joining our thread discussions. Not because they don't enjoy the fireworks or can't handle jabs, necesarily, but because they already feel enough sexist pressure to prove their competency in male-dominated (demographically and culturally) political circles, and don't particularly care to take on the additional burden of becoming someone's rhetorical target practice. They'll stick to reading. So while regularly published female columnists in the school paper might feel fine risking a takedown or two (comes with the territory), at the margins, I think venom chills women's participation in mostly-male liberal blogging worlds.

Posted by: Katie | May 11, 2007 6:14:58 PM

Rhetorical punch is often a good thing, but venom usually has counterproductive effects.

I don't know whether minimizing the "venom" would be more effective or not, but I do think that just the mere presence of repeated criticism gets results, big time.

Big media journalists, like most people I guess, are very sensitive to the drubbings they get, and will sort of instinctively try to avoid them. The right got very good at this and it got to the point where journalists were frightened of their own shadow.

Now the left is joining in on the fun and big media types are getting really skittish because they're getting hit from both sides.

The "working the refs" thing has been discussed ad nauseum, but it really is worth reflecting on just how effective a strategy it is. If you give the ref absolute hell every time he makes a call against your guys, he's going to instinctively flinch before blowing the whistle. He'll still do it, of course, but that hesitation probably gets you a few non-calls (or calls that go the other way) every game. Writ large the consequences are substantial.

Posted by: Jason | May 11, 2007 8:26:13 PM

barb trading and snark tend to deter women from joining our thread discussions

Interesting observation Katie. I wonder if Ezra gets more women participating here because he sets a generally moderate tone.

Jason, it's unclear how much of the effects you speak of require venom. Strong criticism with rhetorical punch can be made without venom (in the sense I understand the word to have).

Posted by: Sanpete | May 11, 2007 9:44:24 PM

I wonder if Ezra gets more women participating here because he sets a generally moderate tone.

I'm sorta new here, so forgive my ignorance about the gender (im)balance trends, but is the question whether or not more women participate, typically, or is it whether the tone is responsible for the generally greater numbers of women?

Posted by: Katie | May 12, 2007 12:33:59 AM

Give me overt venom over dog whistle politics any day.

Posted by: AlanDownunder | May 12, 2007 12:40:07 AM

Both, Katie. I see the ambiguity--I don't know if Ezra or other rhetorically moderate blogs get more women participating or not.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 12, 2007 12:51:13 AM

Those aren't the only alternatives, Alan.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 12, 2007 12:52:28 AM

Perle should be published, but everything he writes should be required to bear the warning that he has never been correct (as opposed to right) about anything.

Posted by: PSP | May 12, 2007 10:01:09 AM

Alan is correct.

Posted by: akaison | May 12, 2007 11:43:17 AM

Those aren't the only alternatives, akaison.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 12, 2007 12:59:45 PM

Uncourse they aren't, but the one's that are often pitted against each other are these two. It's simplistic to assume that any one strategy is all one should have in one's toolbox. My point is that venom just like anything else is a tool that should be used. Not that it's the only one- namely the battle has been pitted as the above poster describes. "Well X has to do that in order to get elected or else can't win." Implicit in that analysis is the assumptions that what's been left unsaid is for us. It allows for manipulation of meaning by those who know we aren't feeling in the gaps or define or be defined.

Posted by: akaison | May 12, 2007 9:12:40 PM

feeling should be filling in the above post

Posted by: akaison | May 12, 2007 9:15:25 PM

tpiwysnjc xboe iahzuvp iwkgxyonr ejayzcmb bszwtkm unjskha

Posted by: limovr gxiqjwvhp | Jul 7, 2007 5:22:18 AM

hjukqxi rnchvzw bhakfpt pnyefzrb nqea rivhsy glkc http://www.dgxyqrw.dbita.com

Posted by: luwmj jmibxaz | Jul 7, 2007 5:24:57 AM

托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
木制托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
钢托盘
木托盘
钢制托盘
托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
南京托盘
南京钢托盘
上海托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
南京托盘
南京钢托盘
上海托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘
杭州托盘
成都托盘
武汉托盘
长沙托盘
合肥托盘
苏州托盘
无锡托盘
昆山托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
南京托盘
南京钢制托盘
南京钢托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘

托盘
托盘
托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
塑料托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
木制托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
木制托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹板托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
木制托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
木托盘
塑料托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹板托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
木制托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹板托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘


托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
托盘
塑料托盘

Posted by: judy | Oct 8, 2007 6:07:17 AM

medication protonix buy generic protonix medication online
zantac 150 buy zantac online
headache medication buy headache medication online
generic imitrex buy generic imitrex online
heartburn medication buy heartburn medication online
generic acipex buy generic aciphex online
generic nexium buy generic nexium online
Zyrtec Online Zyrtec Online

Posted by: lisa | Oct 23, 2007 4:06:49 AM

Amoxicillin amoxil drug kills or stops the growth of bacteria that cause infection. It treats many different kinds of infections of the skin, respiratory tract, sinuses, ear, and kidney. Amoxicillin also treats some sexually transmitted disease. Order generic amoxil amoxicillin online

Clindamycin generic cleocin, an antibiotic, is used to treat infections of the respiratory tract, skin, pelvis, vagina, and abdomen. Antibiotics will not work for colds, flu, or other viral infections. This medication is sometimes prescribed for other uses; ask your doctor or pharmacist for more information. Order generic cleocin clindamycin online

Retin-A skin care drug is often used to improve the appearance and texture of the skin. It produces a mild, superficial peel of the epidermis. Retin-A has effects on the both the superficial (epidermis) and the deep (dermis) parts of the skin. The major benefit is to decrease the effects of sunlight caused aging by increasing the speed with which the surface cells are replaced. Order generic Retin-a online

Tretinoin skin care drug preparations are a family of drugs all similar to Vitamin A. In general, tretinoin gels are stronger than tretinoin creams because the medicine penetrates better when in a gel form. Tretinoin is used to treat acne and aged, sun damaged skin. Tretinoin works best when used in combination with alpha hydroxyacid preparations. If used over a period of years, tretinoin will continue to reverse aging of the skin and can continue improving the skin's appearance even ten years after starting treatment. Order tretinoin gel or cream online

Penlac skin care drug (ciclopirox) topical solution is used along with regular nail trimming to treat fungal infections of the fingernails and toenails (an infection that may cause nail discoloration, splitting and pain). Ciclopirox is in a class of medications called antifungals. It works by stopping the growth of nail fungus. Order generic penlac online