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April 11, 2007

We're...Not Number One

Jon Cohn has a very good article comparing America's health care system to those of other lands. Two parts I want to highlight:

• On technology:

Look at Japan. It has universal health care. It also has more CT scanners and MRIs, per person, than the United States. It's true that the European countries tend to have less technology (although Germany and Switzerland appear to be comparable or at least very close.) But their citizens get more of something else relative to Americans: Face time with doctors and time in hospitals. Take France, for example. As New York University's Victor Rodwin has noted, on a per capita basis the French get more physician office visits and more drugs than their American counterparts. When a woman in France gives birth, she gets to stay in the hospital for an average of nearly five days--even if it's a perfectly normal delivery. In the United States, on average, a woman with normal labor and delivery gets to stay less than two.

• On the argument that Americans get better care prostate cancer care (and thus, by extension, better care generally. We've gone through this one at great length):

Another wrinkle is that the comparisons look a lot different in you look at populations as a whole, rather than just those diagnosed with the disease. Yes, an American diagnosed with prostate cancer is less likely to die than, say, a German diagnosed with prostate cancer. But Americans on the whole are no less likely to die of the disease than Germans on the whole--and the same is true for most of the other well-developed countries in Europe. In fact, the percentage of the population that dies from prostate cancer is remarkably consistent between the United States and the most advanced European nations.

So what's the explanation? One possibility is that aggressive screening in the United States turns up a lot of slow-growing tumors--cancers that would not have ultimately killed people had they been allowed to grow. This seems particularly plausible in the case of prostate cancer. Simply put, the U.S. cure rate may look better than the rest of the world's because we're curing a lot of cancers that don't need to be cured.

No, we can't be sure about this. It's possible that, even accounting for such over-treatment, the United States still has better treatment for breast and prostate cancer. But, even if that were true, it's hard to read the data as indictment of universal health care when the U.S. survival rate on other ailments isn't so superior. The Swedes are more likely than Americans to survive a diagnosis of cervical, ovarian, or skin cancer; the French are more likely to survive stomach cancer, Hodgkins disease, and non-Hodgkins lymphoma. Aussies, Brits, and Canadians do better on liver and kidney transplants.

And all the usual caveats apply: They do it for less money, while providing universal coverage, etc, etc. We're spending twice as much as anyone else, leaving 45 million of our countrymen uninsured, and getting outcomes that are comparable or a bit worse. Moreover, as Jon argues in the first bit I quoted, we lose quite a bit in the availability of basic care and the amount of time we can spend with practitioners, which I can't imagine is a good thing. Indeed, America's got wonderfully advanced trauma care, but we're much worse at the preventative, basic stuff. And this is a question of medical culture. It's telling that hospital emergency rooms, where the most severe and urgent cases are treated with the most violent interventions, can't turn away the poor, while general practitioners, who can catch illnesses early and intervene cheaply, can send the destitute packing.

April 11, 2007 in Health of Nations | Permalink

Comments

It's really funny to watch you day after day complain about those who cannot afford heathcare insurance and never, ever complain about the practices that drive the ridicuous healthcare costs that price it, and even the insurance for it, out of reach. Instead, it's all about taxing the pubic to pay for the insurance to cover the healthcare costs that are out of control.

I'd like to see some expose from you on the medical practices that are causing this root problem and what can be done to bring costs down.

Now *THAT* would be interesting.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 11, 2007 10:08:21 AM

Keep your eyes on the next American Prospect, Fred, where a large portion of my feature talks about how to radically reduce health care consumption on both the demand and supply sides. And keep your eye out too for an upcoming web piece I'm writing on the need for progressives to take cost containment seriously.

Posted by: Ezra | Apr 11, 2007 10:57:40 AM

It really is remarkable how much better things are in Germany. When I had a sinus infection while at our Darmstadt office, I just walked into the local clinic, waited for the one person ahead of me to be finished, and then had a doctor spend a full hour with me. I've *never* had a doctor spend that kind of time with me in the US. My US sinus infection experiences (I'm prone to them, apparently) always involved waiting for an hour or so in Urgent Care, followed by a 5 minute session with an MD. The bill was around 100 Euros.


Posted by: msw | Apr 11, 2007 11:00:03 AM

"One possibility is that aggressive screening in the United States turns up a lot of slow-growing tumors--cancers that would not have ultimately killed people had they been allowed to grow. This seems particularly plausible in the case of prostate cancer. Simply put, the U.S. cure rate may look better than the rest of the world's because we're curing a lot of cancers that don't need to be cured."


This is a good attempt, but still misses the mark. We're not necessarily "curing" these slow-growing prostate cancers, we're just diagnosing more of them -- with or without subsequent treatment that may or may not effect a cure.
It's similar to what researchers recently discovered when they looked at the use of the next generation of CAT scanners to spot lung cancers early on. The first study found increased survival time, but the second found no improvement in overall mortality from the disease. How were these apparently contradictory findings reconcilable?
Two reasons: a) spotting a cancer earlier than it would otherwise have been spotted, even if you then provide no treatment whatsoever, will inevitably increase survival time, since survival time is measured from the date of diagnosis; and b) many of the smaller cancers that were spotted with the high tech machines ended up disappearing on their own, without any treatment.

Bottom line: survival time is an exceeding tricky, and therefore often unreliable, means of measuring health outcomes. It only really means something if all other factors remain identical, which they rarely are.

Posted by: retr2327 | Apr 11, 2007 11:22:47 AM

On cost containment, it is very common for conservative shills to argue that it only because the fact of insurance removes the incentives an individual has to constrain to spending.

1 As if anyone volunteers for heart bypass surgery, because it is "free". People do have flesh in the game -- their flesh.

2 Insurance companies are perfectly capable of negotiating for themselves, which they do, obnoxiously.

3 The amounts charged the insured have to be jacked up, to cover the uninsured. The basic dishonesty in charges is not simply a desire to soak insurance companies -- because we don't have a workable system to collect from the uninsured, nominal charges have to be inflated.

Posted by: Bruce Wilder | Apr 11, 2007 11:28:12 AM

The prostate figures hinge on test called prostate specific antigen (PSA), which is a blood test which is currently being rethought.

A matter of false positives, sensitivity/specificity and the fact that the test,
actually problematic today, weeded out an original mass of high PSA guys WITH PCa/CaP ....
and what's left is a bunch of patients with
high PSAs and no cancer.
That is not to say they don't have another condition, but they ...don't ...have cancer.
So the stats are funky...in that regard at least
There are other issues too...technical.

Take home is...trust nobody with prostate cancer stats from America( or maybe anywhere)...
we're not at all sure where we stand for the long haul.

I KNOW these things.

And to cherry pick two conditions perhaps treated well here is just that...a little like aluminum tubes, in a way.

Posted by: has_te | Apr 11, 2007 11:37:07 AM

What about Dr. pay? In one of the previous post on this site, it was noted that Dr.'s in the states earn 3x what their counterparts earn in other OECD countries. Obviously, this is a significant reason why their cost per head is lower. How does this get addressed?

Posted by: DM | Apr 11, 2007 11:40:28 AM

There's not even close to 45 million truly uninsured in the U.S. Over 17 million reside in households having more than $50K in annual income, over 14 million are eligible for Medicaid or SCHIP - but opt out. Over 12 million illegal aliens are also included in the Census Bureau Current Population Survey which is the primary source for this politically inflated number.

Mr. Klein is .. uhhh ... a liar.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | Apr 11, 2007 12:26:12 PM

"When a woman in France gives birth, she gets to stay in the hospital for an average of nearly five days--even if it's a perfectly normal delivery. In the United States, on average, a woman with normal labor and delivery gets to stay less than two."

I'm a firm believer that other countries, including France, have better health care systems than the US, but I'm not sure this a good metric. A woman "gets" to stay in the hospital 3 days longer after a normal delivery? Is that a good thing? Hospitals aren't very fun places to be, and I'm not sure that three more days of muscle deconditioning and exposure to antibiotic resistant Staph counts as better care. Maybe longer hospital stays are better in this case, but it's hardly self-evident.

I suppose it is evidence that the French get more care, which is the point he's trying to make, but like I said, this might not be the best example.

Posted by: mark | Apr 11, 2007 12:52:32 PM

Mark, I'm actually inclined to agree that most normal births don't necessarily require a five-day hospitalization, but particularly for first-time mothers, there are some benefits to a longer stay-- lactation assistance once mom's milk comes in, identifying newborn jaundice or early signs of infection, and so on. It's not so much a matter of physical recovery as it is having ready assistance for those first confusing days. I think most European countries that have shorter maternity stays and/or higher homebirth rates tend to provide frequent in-home nurse visits, and that's good too.

Posted by: latts | Apr 11, 2007 1:32:14 PM

Mr. Klein is .. uhhh ... a liar.

Baloney. What he says is factually correct. You just want to redefine the words involved. Aren't you capable of making your points without calling people liars? It only distracts from your message.

Posted by: Sanpete | Apr 11, 2007 1:33:13 PM

A woman "gets" to stay in the hospital 3 days longer after a normal delivery? Is that a good thing?

A longer period of hospital rest after any major medical procedure (you can argue for yourself whether or not you count delivery as such) is generally a good thing, yes; it gives a wider window for doctors to notice if something has gone wrong/is wrong/is doing what it should not be doing.

Note also that if a woman stays in the hospital for three days longer, so does her child, and three extra days of hospital care and observation can make the difference in diagnosing any number of infant ailments.

Posted by: chdb | Apr 11, 2007 1:52:16 PM

What he says is factually correct.

I guess the difference is that the figures Ezra uses includes illegal aliens that are here unlawfully and should not be eligible, people who have the means, but choose not to purchase healthcare, and even those who have access to FREE healthcare, but simply don't give a shit. And yet they are all lumped into the category of "those poor Americans who don't have access". Well, a good portion of them *do* have access and a good portion of them shouldn't

It is misleading, but I understand why Ezra likes to use these figures. Why look too deeply at figures that promote your agenda?

Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 11, 2007 2:09:50 PM

He should be forced to put an asterisk next to that figure.

Posted by: DM | Apr 11, 2007 2:26:53 PM

Browning

Link?

PS, income does not mean you can buy insurance. Ever hear of a pre-existing condition?

Posted by: RW | Apr 11, 2007 3:15:55 PM

"It is misleading"

BS

A random person in the US has a heart attack and is rushed to the hospital. What is the probability that that person does not have insurance? 45 million / 300 million.

What you want to argue is that the person could have had insurance or that they shouldn't get it anyway. You're welcome to make those points, but they are completely orthogonal to the question of how many people in the US are uninsured, especially when it's used as a metric in a cost/benefit analysis. Illegal aliens, people who can't afford private insurance, and people lacking the foresight or wherewithal to get insurance they can afford will get emergency care and it will be paid for, so we may as well insure them regardless and move their care towards cheaper preventative care.

Posted by: sidereal | Apr 11, 2007 3:24:22 PM

Apparently, a lot of people have bought into the new conservative line, which is supposed to say "we don't have an uninsured problem, because the people without insurance are, like, you know, people who willfully refuse to be insured" or some such - they're illegal, they're in part time jobs, they exempt themselves, yada, yada, yada - which pluperfectly misses the point: they are not insured. They need healthcare. They come into the system, they have trouble affording care, and the costs associated with their health drive up costs for the rest of us. This is what happens when you tie health insurance to employment.

My point to you other concerned progressives - and a shout out to Ezra - is that someone needs to nip this in the bud, because it is already pervasive (look at Fred and Stu, parroting the line; but I've also seen Pat Buchanan float it on McLaughlin, as well as a number of folks at Lucianne and in the WSJ), and it's supposed let conservatives off the hook. No such luck.

Second, I look forward to Ezra's article on cost containment because it is a big issue and it's going to be a big wrinkle in getting Universal Care or Coverage.

Third, I question the notion that extended hospital stays are necessarily a good thing; one reason we've reduced hospital stays - though insurance certainly plays a role - is that hosptals increase the risk of infection for patients, and add to costs (cf above - cost containment has everything to do with the poor management of many hospitals) that are often unnecessary. That French women stay longer after birth does not necessarily say to me that they're doing it better.

Finally, in terms of the cnacer stats, the obvious take-away to me is that we're doing a wonderful job on the cancers that have considerable public attention and energy around them - breast and prostate have become the cancers-du-jour in fundrasing and reseach. Things like Hodgkin's lymphoma, stomach cancers, bone cancers... these are less sexy and while you will get good treatment if they're caught, you are at the mercy of the quality of care you are able to access and the skill of the doctors you deal with. That, in the end, is the problem with our system - there's just too much variance in the care that people are getting, and the result is a less healthy population that's paying through the nose for care. Seems like the worst of all worlds. Now, tell me again, Fred and Stuart, why the real number of uninsured is somehow not our problem.

Posted by: weboy | Apr 11, 2007 4:01:32 PM

Throwing in my usual anecdotal $0.02 on this topic, I have to second what msw mentions above. The quality of care here in Germany is good (although I can't say the waiting time is any better than in the US) and the costs are lower. It's simply makes sense to spread the insurance risk-pool across the entire population and finance it through taxes. It's as clear a case of national welfare and security as defense spending (I'd argue even moreso).

Posted by: josephdietrich | Apr 11, 2007 4:24:50 PM

The U.S. may have "wonderfully advanced trauma care" but that may not help someone whose local ER has closed and the next one is an hour or more away. In fact, having the bestest health insurance in the country or the world isn't going to help you in those circumstances.

Similarly, denying health care to those terrible illegal aliens is going to look a lot less cost effective when you catch that communicable disease that's become endemic in a community that fears public health because they might get deported.

But hey, "rational self interest" is so mid-20th Century.

Posted by: James Killus | Apr 11, 2007 5:29:07 PM

I find it interesting that young collectivist Klein chooses not to defend his 45 million uninsured falsehood. How does a self-described wonk who supposedly delves into matters pass along a number that includes 14 million who by definition are already insured through Medicaid or SCHIP but choose not to enroll. How could he pass along a number that supposedly represents uninsured Americans - but includes millions of illegal aliens?

The reason he passes it along is that it's convenient to his argument for government control of health care - and that most of his readers are quite gullible.


Posted by: Stuart Browning | Apr 11, 2007 5:50:40 PM

What you want to argue is that the person could have had insurance or that they shouldn't get it anyway. You're welcome to make those points, but they are completely orthogonal to the question of how many people in the US are uninsured, especially when it's used as a metric in a cost/benefit analysis. Illegal aliens, people who can't afford private insurance, and people lacking the foresight or wherewithal to get insurance they can afford will get emergency care and it will be paid for, so we may as well insure them regardless and move their care towards cheaper preventative care.

This argument just doesn't make any sense. It does not follow from the fact that everyone gets emergency care when they need it that "we may as well" provide health insurance to everyone (and I assume by this you mean comprehensive, low-deductable, low co-pay health insurance, not just some limited "catastrophic"-type policy). As a study Ezra cited recently reports, there's no evidence that even just expanding health insurance, let alone making it universal, is the most cost-effective way of improving health outcomes.

I also completely reject this idea that the reason an uninsured person lacks insurance is irrelevant to the question of whether they should have insurance. Why should we force people to pay for insurance they do not want? Why should we provide health insurance to illegal immigrants who probably have access to better health care in the U.S., even lacking insurance, than they would in their country of origin?

Posted by: Jason | Apr 11, 2007 6:09:11 PM

...misses the point: they are not insured.

Most all *could* be insured. They have access.

They are not insured because there is no downside for them. Why spend your money when someone else will do it for you.

They know this. They're uninsured, not stupid.

The question now becomes do we nanny everyone into healthcare insurance and get the taxpayers to pay for it? If your answer is yes, then why not get rid of cigarettes, also a costly health problem. Oh, and trans-fats, and then we can ration red meat and force you to eat your vegetables, etc.

I think you see where this is going.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 11, 2007 6:10:47 PM

That, in the end, is the problem with our system - there's just too much variance in the care that people are getting, and the result is a less healthy population that's paying through the nose for care. Seems like the worst of all worlds.

Well, it may "seem" that way to you, but you haven't provided any serious argument or evidence to demonstrate that it is that way in reality. Statements like "there's just too much variance" just beg the questions of how much variance is appropriate, how you measure the amount of variance, and how you have determined that the U.S. has too much of it. Simply asserting, over and over again, some version of "the U.S. system sucks" without providing any kind of serious argument in support of that claim is a waste of time. And I do mean a serious argument, not just a couple of anecdotes about someone being bankrupted by medical bills and a couple of cherry-picked health-related statistics that are unfavorable to the U.S.

For the umpteenth time, you cannot evaluate the quality of a nation's health care system simply by looking at measures of the health of its population, which is determined by a myriad of cultural, environmental, political and social factors, from air pollution standards to climate to the amount of fat they consume.

Posted by: Jason | Apr 11, 2007 6:24:55 PM

Stuart
I find it interesting that you havent provided a link

P.S. Statements that are literally true are not false, still less are they lies, however misleading you might think they are

Posted by: RW | Apr 11, 2007 6:25:34 PM

Jason
Still waiting for your link from Jane Galt (Meagan whatshername) on the previous thread
And the evidence in this thread is precisely responsive to the argument that he was measuring outcomes rather than amount of care -- more CTS, more face time with doctors, more time in hospital after birth. The difference is that Ezra has linked to his sources.

Posted by: RW | Apr 11, 2007 6:29:56 PM

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