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March 04, 2006

Thoughts on the Illinois Rape Case

Shakes here… Via LeMew, the recently discussed rape case in Illinois, during which the presiding judge threatened to jail the victim for refusing to watch a video of the incident, has ended in an acquittal.

The verdict appalled victims' rights advocates, who said the defense sought to affirm every rape myth.

"We're down to those same stereotypes--she was drinking, she was asking for it," said Linda Healy, executive director of Mutual Ground, a suburban counseling program for sexual assault victims.

The video admitted into evidence showed two men, one of whom was the defendant in the case, having sex with the then-16 year old woman, then spitting on her and writing vulgar words on her naked body with a marker. The defense contended that the woman’s having put her hand on the accused’s head, kissing him, and smiling was indicative of consent—even though she was drunk, only semi-conscious, and remembers nothing of the incident.

What I find particularly odious about this case is that is is indicative of a disturbing trend, in which the woman bears a greater burden to stop an unwanted sexual advance than does a man to not take advantage of a woman in a compromised position. There is seemingly very little empathy for a woman who is either partially or wholly incapacitated, or whose judgment is somehow impaired, and almost no respect for her right to be free from coercion under such circumstances—even if she is underage. The merest hint that she may have been remotely aware of what was happening to her is now construed as consent.

Additionally troubling is that, somehow, the failure to be brutalized during the course of a coerced or forcible sexual encounter has also begun to suggest consent. It’s a retrograde notion of rape—that of a woman held at knifepoint by a dark stranger and beaten within an inch of her life, and anything else is not really rape. But the reality is that most rapes are not done by strangers, and most don’t leave their victims with life-threatening physical injuries. Coercive and opportunistic rape are extremely common, and extremely difficult to prove, as they often come down to a she-said/he-said scenario. If a woman doesn’t remember the attack, consent is all too often assumed, with very little reason to do so.

We tell women to protect themselves—be smart, be aware, don’t leave yourself in a vulnerable situation. Women take self-defense courses, just in case. At two different employers, I sat through safety seminars on how women can protect themselves, got given free samples of Mace to attach to my keychain. And yet, when I was raped, I was 16 years old, wide awake with no alcohol or drugs in my system, in my parents’ basement, with the boy I was dating. Mace wouldn’t have helped me. Being aware of “stranger danger” wouldn’t have made a damn bit of difference.

Has his employer ever paid for a seminar on not forcibly raping women? Or how about even not taking advantage of women of dubious consciousness? Or about what constitutes clear consent?

She said. He said.

That’s what it comes down to in a courtroom. But before it ever gets there, it’s the woman’s responsibility to avoid rape to the best of her ability. If she is not completely coherent, and her consent or dissent signals aren’t clear, that’s her fault—and the reason that belief is sustainable is because we don’t expect enough of men in these situations; we don’t burden them with the same responsibility to not take advantage of a situation that we burden women with preventing in the first place. Her mixed signals, not his misinterpretation of them. That soft bigotry of low expectations strikes me as an insult to the men who would never take advantage of a vulnerable woman, as well as the women who are unlucky to find themselves in the presence of a man who would.

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» The problem with rape laws - Illinois edition from Running Scared
There's been yet another weird and twisted tale turning into a three ring circus in the legal system, and I think this case should point out an area where we have some serious shortcomings in our laws. The original case in question involves a (at the t... [Read More]

Tracked on Mar 5, 2006 6:35:20 AM

Comments

There is seemingly very little empathy for a woman who is either partially or wholly incapacitated, or whose judgment is somehow impaired, and almost no respect for her right to be free from coercion under such circumstances.

So, if I get extremely drunk and inadvertently impregnate a woman(who chooses to carry the "fetus" to term)-- you'll fully back my efforts to never provide even $1.00 of support for the child due to my "incapacitation" and/or even the slightest possibility I might have been "coerced" into that sex?

Or, is this just a 'woman thing'?

Posted by: fletch | Mar 4, 2006 8:26:44 PM

I think fletch is just pretending. No one is that fucking stupid. Just to go through the motions, though: Yes, fletch, if you get drunk enough that you're incapable of initiating sex or consenting to it and you are then raped by a woman who is sober, and she gets pregnant and has the baby, then we'll all support your incapacitation defense to a child support action. In fact, we'll support the criminal prosecution of the rapist.

And that situation has happened about 8 times in human history.

Now, if you are drunk and initiate sex, that's a different matter.

I don't know the specifics of this one case, but the rape problem makes vigilante justice seem -- I emphasize "seem" -- appealing. Rape is too easy to get away with. The criminal justice system just doesn't work very well for rape. If there were a way of victimizing white men in such a way, we would develop a system more appropriate to the problem and more useful in creating justice. But women just aren't powerful enough.

Posted by: tom | Mar 4, 2006 8:40:45 PM

You know, it's interesting that every time I write about rape at my place, a bunch of men pop up in comments to talk about how men are the real victims of rape trials and the alleged plethora of false accusations. And it occurs to me, when I read your lovely comment, Tom, especially this bit--"If there were a way of victimizing white men in such a way, we would develop a system more appropriate to the problem and more useful in creating justice"--that if those advocates of the rape-accused are so concerned about men being victimized by rape trials, they should probably be advocating educating men about rape.

Because even though 50% of college women surveyed were either the victim of rape or attempted rape, were touched sexually against their wills, or were victims of sexual coercion, and one in twelve men surveyed had committed rape, 84% of those men who committed rape said that what they did was definitely not rape.

So maybe the answer is making sure that men actually know what constitutes rape. Perhaps then they won't do it, and won't be convinced that rape charges are false just because they believe what they did was "definitely not rape."

Funny, though--when I suggest this to the men who defend the victimizers of women, they're never keen to jump on board that particular idea train. Huh.

Posted by: Shakespeare's Sister | Mar 4, 2006 9:32:10 PM

If there were a way of victimizing white men in such a way, we would develop a system more appropriate to the problem and more useful in creating justice.

Er- there is a big problem with rape among men. Millions of men get raped in prison and nothing is done about it.

Posted by: Jacob | Mar 4, 2006 11:02:53 PM

The most mystifying aspect of rape for me is the very widespread refusal of men to denounce it when they see it happen in front of them. In the case at hand, the woman is incapacitated, and a group of men watch each other have sex with her. No one says "stop." No one calls the cops. No one hits the rapist over the head with a lamp. They watch a rape in progress, and they do nothing.

And if one of them had objected, he would have been ostracized by the community -- by women friendly to the rapists, as well as by men.

There is something deeply, deeply fucked up about the psychology and sociology of rape. Many if not most men, it seems, simply refuse to recognize rape as rape, if a knife isn't held to the woman's throat. Many if not most people of either sex simply refuse to recognize that rape is a moral offense that even apparently nice boys can and do commit.

It is in situations like this -- a group of people victimized with impunity, a state and society that not only refuse to acknowledge the crime but that shun the victim -- that vigilante justice can be so natural and seem so appealing. If the state refuses to punish the rapist, then some friend of the rapist might well feel justified in taking a baseball bat to the face of the rapist. In the grand scheme of things, such an assault would not trouble me much -- though the person swinging the bat would likely be caught, tried, and convicted much more easily than any rapist.

And does it need to be said that any guy who would have even consensual sex with a woman and then spit on her and write obscenities on her body with a marker richly deserves to have his face crushed? Likewise for anyone who would stand by grinning while it happened.

A legal -- and perhaps less satisfying -- means of picking up the slack when the state fails to do justice would be as follows: A group of anti-rape culture-jammers could organize loosely on a national level. When a credible allegation of rape does not lead to a conviction (and imprisonment), the group could simply publicize the identity of the rapist in the rapist's neighborhood. Put up posters, send out leaflets, perhaps use billboards, or whatever. Picture of the guy, and the text, "John Doe is a Rapist," with the details included.

This would take organization and a certain amount of money. Also, there would be slander lawsuits (where the persons responsible for the posters could be found). A slander suit couldn't prevail, though, without the target proving by a preponderance of the evidence that the accusations are false. That's much harder to do than simply to create a reasonable doubt of guilt. But there would still be legal fees to defend against a slander suit (if a defendant could be found) -- and that's why an organization and money would be needed.

Waddaya say, Shakes? What I'm describing is perfectly legal and non-violent. It's a weak form of justice, but it beats the shit out of simply an acquittal (or non-prosecution) followed by silence.

A rape victim can always bring a civil suit, which is easier to win than a criminal prosecution, but publicity doesn't necessarily follow from such a suit, and public shaming is likely to be as painful as having to pay a money judgment.

Shakes? You could get this ball rolling. Legal, and non-violent, but aggressive. What would the objections be?

Posted by: tom | Mar 4, 2006 11:04:07 PM

I am sorry to read your story, Shakes, and very sad to read of this latest acquittal. The system itself seems to complicate the rape damage more than providing justice.
Most of us men are not rapists, but we over-deny that there are those among us that are. Since we can't imagine actually committing rape, but can imagine vindictiveness in relationships, we sometimes accept the vile defenses that are mounted as plausible scenarios, even though they hardly ever are.
It takes a lot of determination for victims to pursue justice.
Also, you gave way too civil a reply to fletch. Let me try:
Dear jackass -- if you inadvertently strike me with your car while drunk, you damn sure betcha I'm holding you accountable. If you get your lady pregnant, same thing. Once you "gift" the seed -- it's hers -- no takebacks, capiche?
Drunkenness is not a defense from ones own choices. That is way different than diminished ability to consent to things.
Your own drunkenness can lead to mistakes and liabilities. Taking advantage of someone else's can and usually ought to be a crime.

Posted by: Ted | Mar 4, 2006 11:20:42 PM

Jacob, I think your point supports mine. Felons in prison are not exactly a socially powerful group.

Posted by: tom | Mar 4, 2006 11:48:23 PM

Er- there is a big problem with rape among men. Millions of men get raped in prison and nothing is done about it.

I think I remember reading about a study which suggests that this idea is not true. And when I think about it, it does seem extremely unlikely that a group of people so given over to macho posturing would so often rape each other.

The responsibility for rape lies with the rapist. False accusations almost never happen, and when they do, since the burden of proof is upon the prosecution, it is extremely unlikely that one would result in a conviction.

Posted by: Stephen | Mar 5, 2006 1:25:02 AM

there is a big problem with rape among men. Millions of men get raped in prison and nothing is done about it.

Prisoners aren't exactly an "empowered class," though, are they? Which is precisely the point. If free white men were being victimized in this way all the time - that is, the class that generally owns and runs much of the country - we would have a system better designed to mete out justice. Instead we have a system which more or less turns on the victim to favor the perpetrator - a perpetrator who remains a member of that empowered class. Note that prison rape is also shrugged off by blaming the victim - if they didn't want to get raped, they shouldn't have committed the crime, etc.

Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Mar 5, 2006 11:26:02 AM

I think that the burden of proof is screwed up.

Basically, there are two questions in a rape case: 1) did the defendant engage in sexual activities with the alleged victim, and 2) did the alleged victim consent?

In our current system, we assume that the defendent and the alleged victim did not engage in any sort of sexual activities until proven otherwise, and we also assume that the accuser did consent until proven otherwise.

I think that the first part is correct, but the second part is wrong.

In mathematics and philosophy, universal hypotheses can be proven, but in the real empirical world, they can only be disproven. In math/philosophy, existential hypotheses can be disproven, but in the real empirical world, they can only be proven.

I.e. "All crows are black" can never be proven, only disproven. "There exists a white crow," on the other hand, can be proven, but not disproven.

The burden of proof should be placed on a party capable of proving its case, at least in theory. If the party fails to prove it, then that's just how the justice system works, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, but no party should be held to a burden of proof that they are theoretically incapable of providing.

In the case of, say, a robbery we can see how this works: the prosecution's case is, "There exists an incident in which the defendent stole what we say he stole." Since the defense's case is to disprove this existential statement, which they cannot do (just as they cannot prove that there doesn't exist a single white crow), the burden of proof must thus lie with the prosecution.

With a rape case, as I said above, there are two questions: "was there sexual activity?" and "was there consent?" In our current system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that the answer to first was "yes" and the second was "no."

However, these are both existential propositions. It is possible for the prosecution to prove that there was sexual activity, but the second buren of proof -- that there did not exist any consent -- is impossible for the prosecution to meet.

With the view that each side should be at least theoretically capable of meeting the burden of proof demanded of it, I think that it should be the prosecution's job to prove that there was sexual activity between the accuser and the defendent, and it should be the defense's job to prove that there was consent.

Some might say that I am holding accused rapists guilty until proven innocent. To some extent, this is true, but only once sexual activity between the accused rapist and the alleged victim is already established. If there is a shred of doubt as to whether the sexual activity happened, the defendent is still innocent until proven guilty.

However, once sexual activity is established, the prosecution should not be asked to meet a burden of proof that they are logically incapable of meeting: proving non-consent.

I realize I'm on touchy ground here, in a world with various civil liberties infringements becoming more common. Some might say that this will just get more people thrown in jail, when already 1% of Americans (or so) are imprisoned. I don't want to see any innocent men imprisoned, but I just want to ask: if the defense can always claim consent, how can the prosecution prove the negative: non-consent?

Posted by: Julian Elson | Mar 5, 2006 1:45:13 PM

The most mystifying aspect of rape for me is the very widespread refusal of men to denounce it when they see it happen in front of them.

Men aren't the only ones. There tend to be a lot of rapist-protecting kapos amongst women as well, who don't want their sorority to get sanctioned for its members drinking or don't want other men to get upset at them for standing up against an attacker. When a rape occurs amongst people who previously were friends or acquaintences - which is most frequently how it happens - it stands to shake up a whole social circle, and it's pretty likely that there's something screwed up in that circle to begin with. There's this weird disconnect where we say that rapists are unimaginably monstrous, but that they're also the people we live with and work with and are related to. So if your cousin gets accused of rape, but isn't exactly "monstrous," what are you to believe? That this one person accused him unfairly, or that he is in fact a monster and that he grew up in your family with these monstrous ideas about consent and female autonomy? I think it's hard for people to realize that rape occurs so often because the ideas that support it are still quite pervasive, despite all the lip-service paid to how we've achieved perfect equality.

Posted by: Sara | Mar 5, 2006 2:28:11 PM

In our current system, we assume that the defendent and the alleged victim did not engage in any sort of sexual activities until proven otherwise, and we also assume that the accuser did consent until proven otherwise.

I think that the first part is correct, but the second part is wrong.

Except that under our legal system the burden to prove the existence of a crime is always on the prosecution. What you are saying is, essentially, that somehow it is the defense which must prove that a rape did not occur - or, at least, to prove that consent was given. I think this leads to an enormous slippery slope.

Obviously, the American criminal justice system has some serious problems when it comes to rape. But a large part of this is because we have a presumption of innocence. It is the state which must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a rape occurred, and it is their responsibility to prove both elements of the crime - both that sex occurred, and that it occurred non-consensually. Anything else, would, I think, be probably unconstitutional, and could lead down a path of a presumption of guilt.

(That being said, I do think that if you can prove that the victim was unconscious or semi-conscious, that that constitutes pretty clear proof that consent was not given, and one shouldn't have to go any further than that. We should also remember that lack of consent only has to be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt," not "beyond all doubt." Obviously, it's impossible to prove, beyond all doubt, that consent was not given. But it is certainly not impossible to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, as the fact that people are regularly convicted of rape or sexual assault demonstrates.)

That said, I don't think the real problem necessarily lies in the law. Or in the defense lawyers who get their clients off by demonizing the victim. The defense lawyer's responsibility is to do whatever they can, within the law, to get their client acquitted. If demonizing the victim works (and, in a depressing number of case, it seems to), then they are to be commended for their diligence in demonizing the victim.

The problem is in society at large. Basically, society is completely schizophrenic about rape. On the one hand, rape is pretty seriously stigmatized - convicted sex offender registration and all that. But the practical effect of this seems to be that it makes it harder to see seemingly "normal" people as rapists. Juries don't want to convict nice, clean-cut college boys of "rape" - because rapists are monsters who hide in bushes and attack women.

So I think Shakes is basically right - what we need to do is educate people (read: men, mostly) more about what constitutes rape, and create a society where it isn't somehow permissible to force yourself on drunk girls.

Even so, it seems like there are bound to be instances where rapists get off on he said/she said grounds. I'm not completely sure this is a bad thing - does the "better 10 guilty men go free than that 1 innocent man goes to prison" aphorism not apply when the 10 guilty men are rapists who get off by demonizing the victim, and the 1 innocent man is someone falsely accused of rape? Obviously, aphorisms can't fully guide our views on things, but I've always thought that that aphorism was a good one - it shows the American legal system's commitment to justice and fairness. I think issues of rape, where I'd guess that one actually comes pretty close to fulfilling the aphorism - I'd guess that a huge number more rapists go free than innocent men go to prison for rape - really ought to test us on whether we really believe in this conception.

I have to say, I'm not really sure what the right answer is here. I'm fairly certain it's not to change the burden of proof, but beyond that, it seems like there's a real problem that doesn't admit of any easy answers.

Posted by: John | Mar 5, 2006 2:39:21 PM

Sara,

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

John and Julian,

Good discussion. I also worry about changing the burden of proof in our criminal cases. But there was a case recently in which a woman was charged with filing a false police report, a felony I believe, because the man she had accused of rape was acquitted. It seems to me that it is only in rape cases that the defense is able to accuse the victim of lying - to the police and to the court, both crimes - without having to meet any burden of proof whatsoever. What we're dealing with here, then, are two accusations of crime. One of rape, the other of false reporting/perjury. Why is it that the burden of proof must be met for the one, but not for the other?

If all we are able to do is allow it to become he said/she said, then we obviously need to put some safeguards in place that will protect victims from our culture's willingness to see women as vindictive sluts.

Posted by: Stephen | Mar 5, 2006 4:39:42 PM

Good discussion. I also worry about changing the burden of proof in our criminal cases. But there was a case recently in which a woman was charged with filing a false police report, a felony I believe, because the man she had accused of rape was acquitted. It seems to me that it is only in rape cases that the defense is able to accuse the victim of lying - to the police and to the court, both crimes - without having to meet any burden of proof whatsoever. What we're dealing with here, then, are two accusations of crime. One of rape, the other of false reporting/perjury. Why is it that the burden of proof must be met for the one, but not for the other?

From what I'v eread about that case, it was a complete travesty - even if the he said/she said is enough to get the guy acquitted, there's absolutely no way they should be filing charges against the girl on just the guy's say-so. That's utterly absurd.

I also have the general impression that, while that particular case is emblematic with some serious problems in the way rape gets treated, the specific thing that happened (girl getting charged with false reporting) is extraordinarily unusual. At a guess, accusing the principal prosecution witness of lying is not an unusual tactic of defense lawyers. The defense has no need to "meet a burden of proof" in such instances - it is up to the prosecution to meet their own burden of proof, while defense lawyers try to prevent them from doing so. Impugning the testimony of key witnesses has always been a major part of this latter task.

Which is not to defend the fact that a rape victim got charges brought against her on no real evidence at all, which was just horrendous.

Posted by: John | Mar 5, 2006 6:27:10 PM

I see a lot of goalpost shifting here, now it's not just "white men" but "politically powerful white men" (and what with whole Dukestir thing that should probably be "unindicted politically powerful white men")

Although it was nice that no one called me on the "millions" part, which was slightly hyperbolic as there are only a few million people in prison in the US. Probably more like tens or hundreds of thousands.

Stephan– Please cite this study. Because I've seen estimates of 10-25%. It makes more sense that you'd have sexual violence in a heavily machoist atmosphere. In an area without women that violence would fall upon other men.

Posted by: Jacob | Mar 5, 2006 6:55:29 PM

When a rape occurs amongst people who previously were friends or acquaintences - which is most frequently how it happens - it stands to shake up a whole social circle, and it's pretty likely that there's something screwed up in that circle to begin with.

Basically. No one knows what to think when a guy they know rapes someone. After this happened in my social circle in college, no one was really friends for long after that. The trauma spreads far beyond the victim.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | Mar 5, 2006 7:10:20 PM

Because I've seen estimates of 10-25%.

Considering the close confines and tensions in prison, as well as the number of women that have been victims of sexual assault, that's really not that much. I'm not trying to say that sexual violence is not a problem in prison; it's a problem anytime and anywhere. I think the study I was referencing pegged it at about that percentage, maybe a little less. I'm not trying to make serious assertions here, only that prison rape is not as common as is widely believed - a belief that I think is so persistant because it reinforces polite society's image of the "criminal classes."

Posted by: Stephen | Mar 5, 2006 9:26:35 PM

Jacob, surely you saw that the point, from the beginning, was that the most socially powerful groups suffer very little from rape, whereas groups that are not socially powerful suffer considerably from it. And that's part of the reason we haven't developed a more satisfying way of dealing with rape in the criminal justice system. I don't think anyone is shifting the goalpost. I think you just read the point in an artificially narrow way. In any case, if there is goalpost shifting, so be it. It would be strange to demand stable, settled statements of opinion in offhand comments on a blog. These aren't treatises, you know.

Posted by: tom | Mar 5, 2006 9:27:13 PM

So why wouldn't Mace have helped in your parent's basement?

Posted by: James B. Shearer | Mar 5, 2006 10:14:14 PM

What a load of succotash!

Like any other crime, you need evidence.

1) Got evidence? Then hang the rapist.
2) Don't have evidence? Err on the side of the accused as we do with everything else.

The assumption of innocence doesn't stop when it comes to a rape case....

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 6, 2006 2:39:27 PM

Oh, and I might add the same goes for the girl on her being a lying bitch.

Got evidence? Let her hang.

No, let her go....

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 6, 2006 2:43:55 PM

Fred, "got evidence?" isn't all that helpful. There's always some evidence -- even if it's only the woman's word, or even just the woman's vague memory of what happened while she was drunk. The problem is that the beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard means -- given the factual nature of rape cases -- that most rapes will go unpunished.

In a world where rape is shockingly common, and where false accusations of rape are fairly rare (in part because of the strong stigma that attaches to being a rape victim), there's a strong argument to be made for adopting a less onerous burden of proof in rape cases.

Obviously, that's a major departure from tradition, and there are slippery-slope concerns. But the question, essentially, is whether the system will favor rapists (and allow an enormous number of victims to be raped with impunity), or will favor accusers (and inevitably punish a small number of men unjustly). Any system will serve justice less than perfectly. It's clear to me that the current system does not strike the best balance.

Posted by: tom | Mar 6, 2006 5:26:39 PM

tom, your position doesn't make any sense. Suppose the "beyond a reasonable doubt standard" means the state must establish a 95+% chance of guilt. Then society has decided that it is better for 19 (but no more) murderers go free than for one innocent man be convicted of murder (or any other crime). Why should this tradeoff be resolved differently for rape than for all other crimes?

Under the current standard you already have a fairly large number of unjust convictions where completely innocent men have been convicted due to faulty eyewitness identifications. Incidentally this shows juries will convict solely on a woman's word if she tells a credible story (none of this "I have no idea what happened because I was too drunk to remember" nonsense).

If you want to make legal changes to make convictions easier in cases like this modifying statutory rape and under age drinking laws would seem more sensible. As for me, as a teetotaler, I don't have a lot of empathy for drunks suffering misfortune.

Posted by: James B. Shearer | Mar 6, 2006 8:49:53 PM

Why should this tradeoff be resolved differently for rape than for all other crimes?

That was exactly *my* point. This line of reasoning is emotional and makes no sense. Why isn't this commenter promoting this lowering of standards for crimes such as murder, another crime difficult to detect and punish. You don't have a rat's ass chance of recovering from murder.

Following this line of 'reasoning'we would soon have different standards for determining guilt depending on the "crime du jour".


Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 7, 2006 11:05:18 AM

only, um. we already hold raped women to a different evidentiary standard than we hold other crime victims. Seriously, I've never heard a mugger get off on a "well, he just decided to GIVE me the money" defense. And would it be a defense after taking a guy's wallet to say, "well, he was passed out drunk and he gave me 50 cents earlier, so I figured he'd want me to take it"?

I find it bitterly frustrating that society continually tells women, physically smaller than men, that it's up to them to continually monitor and control their surroundings so they don't get raped (don't drink too much, don't go upstairs on a house tour, make sure someone walks you home, here's a whistle!). But I don't hear nearly as often from men (and from their friends, warning them to be careful) a sense of "hey, before I hit that, I better make 100% clear she's into this, because if she's not, I'm gonna get in biiiig trouble."

Men have to take responsibility for their actions. And if they coulldn't be bothered to get consent, they should be punished.

Posted by: theorajones | Mar 7, 2006 8:30:48 PM

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