Moo!

By Neil the Ethical Werewolf

David Sirota and I got into a big fight in the comments of a previous post.  He referred to one of my comments criticizing him for misinterpreting other Democrats as a "smelly, steaming pile of manure."  Manure is the dung of barnyard animals, and Sirota's comment might thus be taken to liken me to a barnyard animal.  This would certainly be a happy thing -- the last two people I know of who were likened to barnyard animals by Sirota were Matt Yglesias and Mark Schmitt.  I am pleased to be in such august company! 

If you're offended that I just interpreted Sirota's manure comment in a way that doesn't fully comport with his actual intentions, please don't venture below the fold.  I'm going to discuss some misreadings by Sirota that are far more drastic. 

Much of the discussion between me and Sirota concerns Sirota's piece, Debunking 'Centrism', and Matt's response, Debunking "Debunking 'Centrism'".  Here's Sirota in the comments:

Yglesias says my point about the DLC disparaging so-called class warfare isn't true, nor is my point that they consistently tell Democrats "not to hammer corporations for their misbehavior and not to push for a serious crackdown on corporate excess." Not true? Bullshit. As just one example, see this where Will Marshall characterizes populism as so-called "anti-business" and "class warfare," claiming it will turn off voters – exactly what I said in my piece.

So what does Will Marshall actually say about class warfare? 

The other pitfall Democrats should avoid is trying to trump cultural populism with economic populism. It drives liberals crazy that downscale voters who don't benefit much from GOP economic policies nonetheless backed Bush on cultural grounds. But since most voters don't neatly compartmentalize their ethical and economic concerns, simply turning up the volume on anti-business and class warfare themes isn't likely to change their minds. And heartland voters aren't likely to miss the unflattering implication that they're too dim to realize where their best interests lie.

Instead, Democrats should do a better job of linking their economic interests and moral outlook.

I bolded the "simply" because it's really important.  If you're looking for the "anti-business" and "class warfare" bits, they're later in the same sentence.  Marshall isn't saying that there's anything wrong with the anti-business class warfare stuff -- he's just saying that you have to do some other stuff too.  You have to present it in a different way -- a morally charged way.  One of the reasons I like John Edwards so much is that he's good at presenting good solid Democratic economic populism in a morally charged (and patriotic) way -- exactly the way that Will Marshall likes.  If Sirota had read carefully, he wouldn't have been upset with this discussion of class warfare, unless he's opposed to moral rhetoric for some reason.  He'd just say, "wow, Marshall says I can have all the class warfare and anti-business rhetoric I want, as long as I frame it in solid moral terms.  I am a happy Sirota!  I love the DLC!"  Okay, maybe not that, but you get the idea. 

The next bit of wild and wooly Sirota action in the comments is this:

Yglesias says this statement in my piece is untrue "On taxes, self-described "centrists" like Senator Joe Lieberman, a senior DLC leader, attacked proposals to repeal the Bush tax cuts to pay down the deficit." Then Yglesias goes on to admit my point was, in fact, true, admitting that Lieberman "said was that it would be a mistake to advocate (as Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt did) repealing all of Bush's tax cuts." Exactly.

Tell me -- where in Debunking "Debunking 'Centrism' does Matt say that statement is untrue, as Sirota claims?  Matt's point, rather, is that Sirota is misleading.  If Sirota had been more conscientious in his original piece, he would've pointed out that Lieberman wanted to repeal the parts of the Bush tax cuts that liberals most want to repeal -- the parts that go to the rich.  Nowhere in Sirota's piece, "Debunking Centrism," does Sirota let the reader know that Lieberman wanted those most objectionable parts of the Bush cuts to go away.  An innocent reader who came to Sirota's piece without knowing about Lieberman's actual tax proposal would think that Lieberman wanted to preserve the Bush tax cuts in their entirety.  This wouldn't be an altogether terrible thing for someone to think, since there are plenty of reasons to be upset with Lieberman.  Still, authors should strive to not write misleading things. 

Now for the last verse, same as the first:

Finally, Yglesias said it was untrue that the DLC urges, as I said, "Democrats to jettison economic populism, which has been used to elect Democrats in various red regions in America." He claims that the document I cited – the DLC's heartland strategy – doesn't exactly say that.

Here we need the untrue/misleading distinction again.  Yglesias doesn't say that Sirota said anything untrue -- he just juxtaposes partial quotes from Sirota with their context in the DLC pieces, and says, "that's rather different."  The "heartland strategy" document Sirota is talking about is the very one that had the "anti-business" and "class warfare" stuff that was cited at the beginning of this post, and the points Matt made are a lot like the points I made, though he didn't extend the quote to pick up the moral stuff that I liked.  (He did include the "simply", though.) Now, about that "Heartland Strategy" document -- Will Marshall never says that Democrats should jettison economic populism.  He says they need to infuse it with moral rhetoric and make it all John Edwards awesome.  (Marshall does not actually use the phrase "John Edwards awesome.")  To show that Marshall isn't an enemy of economic populism, let me just quote another bit from the Marshall piece:

Just as religious advocates of the "Social Gospel" infused early 20th century progressivism with moral fervor, Democrats should couch their social initiatives in the language of faith and morality. The sad truth is that since Clinton's departure, Democrats have had little to say about growing poverty and inequality in America. Surely, they are moral issues no less than abortion and gay marriage, and they give Democrats an opportunity to speak unambiguously of right and wrong.

It's fairly populist to recommend saying more about "growing poverty and inequality" in a morally charged way.  If someone were telling you to jettison economic populism, they probably wouldn't be saying something like that. 

Sirota's last claim (which wasn't discussed in "Debunking 'Centrism'" or criticized in the Yglesias piece, as far as I can tell):

In fact, that is what the DLC does – attack economic populism. Al From, the DLC's president, actually publicly BRAGS about this. As reported in the American Prospect, he told reporters that in the 2000 election he "gave [Gore] a game plan to try to contain the populism."

Now let's see the context:

I talked to [Bob] Shrum, [Stanley] Greenberg, [Carter] Eskew, and Tad Devine," he says. "I did a memo to Gore. I actually gave him a game plan to try to contain the populism in a way that would do the least damage."

Wait... it looks like Sirota actually got the context right this time!  Hooray for you, David Sirota!  That didn't hurt, did it?  Because that's what it feels like when you quote something correctly and in a non-misleading way.  If you're ever wondering whether you're citing people the right way or the wrong way, look back at that statement, because that's the right way to do it!   You have successfully shown me that Al From tried to hold back Gore's populism, and I believe you. 

For the time being, however, it might be best for us not to put too much weight on Sirota's citations of other people, until he gets used to attributing views to those who hold them in a non-misleading way.  As I said in the comments, I actually agree with him on a fair number of things, and I think he's a pretty solid and productive activist.  There's nothing wrong here that a good education in reading comprehension and correct citation from a friendly barnyard werewolf couldn't cure.