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November 13, 2007

His Ideas Are Good, But I Want More Bullet Points



So we're back to arguing about John Edwards' plan to strip members of Congress of their health care if they don't pass comprehensive reform. I'm always astonished at how bizarrely literally pundits act when they approach this idea. It's true that, in the strong form, its; unconstitutional. Edwards cannot, with his pen, deprive anyone of their health care. The Edwards Campaign, by contrast, says that it will take the form of a bill sent to Congress, which seems constitutional, though everyone says it would be impossible to pass.

But would it be? That's the part I don't understand. Why wouldn't the Democratic leadership want to use this legislation to hammer away at Republicans? To force them to go on the record about the importance of their own health care? The idea behind this bill is that it will ratchet up political pressure for change, creating a situation in which Congressmen come to the table because they fear losing their seats if they don't. It's a strategy based on the application of political pressure, not legislative finesse. And while not a surefire winner, it's certainly a plausible theory of reform.

Meanwhile, I find the liberal outrage and bewilderment over this bit of populist symbolism to be very unsettling. At base, Edwards is doing something very simple: Dramatizing the inequities in our health care system. Most liberals would have you believe that dramatizing, and fixing, the inequities in our health care system is their primary political goal. But not like this, I guess. This is too uncouth, too aggressive, too much theatre and not enough legalism. I think a perfectly fair case could be made that this is bad strategy that will irritate the Congress and make reform less likely. But I've not actually heard that case made. Rather, many liberals simply seem offended that Edwards would engage in such crass political theatre. The fact that actual voters seem to thrill to the argument hardly enters the discussion.

November 13, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

...though everyone says it would be impossible to pass. But would it be? That's the part I don't understand.

I haven't read much analysis on this, but, presumably, members of Congress would be reluctant to risk their own healthcare coverage for a speculative bet that they might be able to pass comprehensive coverage.

Posted by: Jasper | Nov 13, 2007 1:28:01 PM

This is too uncouth, too aggressive, too much theatre and not enough legalism.

It's too much substance and not enough bullshit that sounds nice but clearly isn't meant to change a damn thing.

In our politics there's conservative, liberal and DC. DC politics are only tangentially related to what the am ha'aretz care about, and that's usually by accident.

Edwards scares the hell out of everyone in DC regardless of party affiliation, because he's the best chance we have to call them on their bullshit.

Posted by: Stephen | Nov 13, 2007 1:30:15 PM

Meanwhile, I find the liberal outrage and bewilderment over this bit of populist symbolism to be very unsettling.

Hmmm. I was unaware there is "liberal outrage and bewilderment over this bit of populist symbolism." Now that's something I don't get. It seems to me to be a pretty effective bit of rhetoric. What are the objections?

Posted by: Jasper | Nov 13, 2007 1:33:16 PM

Sssshhh!!! Stop making noise! If you're quiet and you let the calm centrists do their work and if more and more people for whatever reason keep voting for more and more Democrats no matter what they do or don't do, eventually in some number of years or decades they will do some really good stuff, somehow, if it doesn't seem too radical or controversial or seem mired in battles about the 1960s or suggests that we're going back to the era of big government and all.

Posted by: El Cid | Nov 13, 2007 1:33:27 PM

I don't know if it would pass, but you could easily force a vote on it. Edwards can just veto some pork-laden spending bill—the water projects bill, say—until Congress at least holds a vote on it.

And until the vote happens, every GOP press conference discussing their opposition to the health care bill would feature a reporter asking why they won't support the edwards bill.

Posted by: Nicholas Beaudrot | Nov 13, 2007 1:33:36 PM

I still think Edwards will get the nom.

Posted by: christian | Nov 13, 2007 1:39:14 PM

Edwards is saying the same thing a lot of people say- Congress is tickled pink with their socialized medicine but won't let the rest of us have it. I get this as a forwarded e-mail from my elderly mother quite regularly.

If the "big thinkers" in the Democratic Party want to lose the next election, they should just keep up the backbiting and quibbling. The average voter may not know much about healthcare, but almost all of them think the Congress gets a real sweetheart deal in this regard.

Posted by: serial catowner | Nov 13, 2007 1:44:00 PM

"But would it be? That's the part I don't understand. Why wouldn't the Democratic leadership want to use this legislation to hammer away at Republicans? To force them to go on the record about the importance of their own health care? The idea behind this bill is that it will ratchet up political pressure for change, creating a situation in which Congressmen come to the table because they fear losing their seats if they don't. It's a strategy based on the application of political pressure, not legislative finesse."

Ezra's words. My bolding.

The Washington Democratic establishment doesn't understand this part of the political playbook.

They are quite familiar with defense when the GOP uses political pressure to go over their heads, but they don't even imagine ever going on the offense themselves with a populist wedge issue.

Posted by: Petey | Nov 13, 2007 1:50:25 PM

I think believing that Congress would vote to cut its own health care provisions are dlusional, but that's me. I get the popular appeal of this - it seems vaguely punishing, and given Congress' low approvals, you could pretty much get popular approval to deny them most anything - pens! paper! - just to prove a point. Frankly, I'm one of the people who finds this all terribly unserious, and I don't see the need to debate it. Indeed, I continue to think that none of the Democrats are terrible on healthcare reforms, all very similar in terms of the policies they propose... which are just not so great, either. And healthcare policy is really not the reason I won't consider voting for Edwards.

Posted by: weboy | Nov 13, 2007 1:54:25 PM

Well obviously it's a rhetorical trick, a sort of thought experiment. But it's a good one -- I don't know why anybody would be outraged by it.

On the other hand, I wasn't aware that anybody was. Maybe you could point us to the outraged liberals? I missed that part.

Posted by: cervantes | Nov 13, 2007 1:58:23 PM

It's not just populist rhetoric but also level of importance rhetoric. On just about every issue Hillary has come out with a more comprehensive and more practical plan. But what is going to get passed is what the winner emphasized in the campaign and can claim a mandate. With Bush, you knew it was going to be the tax cuts. With Edwards, this is his way of signaling it will be health care.

Posted by: Jeff P | Nov 13, 2007 1:59:21 PM

I'm someone who's gut level reaction is this sort of theater is very negative. I thought I'd try to explain why, but words fail me. It reminds me of the lame "house banking scandal" or all the complaints about congressional pay raises.

The whole thing just seems so childish, like holding your breath until you get your way or preferring to break a toy instead of sharing it.

When it comes to substance, Edwards is saying he will only hire people rich enough like himself who can afford to have their health benefits cut. Brilliant.

People who work for the government get their health benefits from their employer just like everyone else. Employer-based health care is a huge problem that must be fixed, but this stunt tries to make a false point, that government jobs are somehow different (being the government and all) and thus that health care is socialized medicine. No, it's just employer-based health care.

However, once I get past all this stupidity and distaste, I find myself back where I started: It reminds me of the lame "house banking scandal" or all the complaints about congressional pay raises. For some reason, the general population seems to react to this kind of thing. So, it may actually work.

Bleh.

Posted by: Mark | Nov 13, 2007 2:04:38 PM

It'a a way of making a point--a very clear and strong one.

I wasn't aware of any liberal backlash against Edwards saying this, but I don't read everything.

However, I know what when I bring this up, people just start nodding vigorously or saying yes, yeah, etc. Sometimes both.

It works. It's shorthand for why not equity, fairness for everyone--a point Edwards also makes.

Posted by: jawbone | Nov 13, 2007 2:07:54 PM

It's about "look over there!" Meaning, if you pretend this is literal, then you don't have to address the elegance of how well narrates the story. Instead, we waste brain cells trying to convince weboy, for example, of the narrative and strategy rather than on implementing it. See the point?

Posted by: akaison | Nov 13, 2007 2:09:43 PM

Some of it is on list servs, some of it on Tapped (see Garance's post), some at the Politico (see Ben Smith), etc.

Posted by: Ezra | Nov 13, 2007 2:10:25 PM

by the way- anyone as jawbone points out who 'gets' the point, gets it right away, on an emotional level. something liberals have been bad at doing for a while. that edwards does it here is soemthing to be lauded regardless of those who don't get "it." the it is how to tell a story that connects emotionally with your audience.

Posted by: akaison | Nov 13, 2007 2:13:07 PM

When it comes to substance, Edwards is saying he will only hire people rich enough like himself who can afford to have their health benefits cut. Brilliant.

I don't think the average American foolishly assumes that White House appointees will be impoverished single mothers working in low wage jobs right up until the moment they're nominated as chief of an executive branch department.

I think they actually assume, quite accurately, that White House employees are rather successful and often comparatively well off professionals mostly from rather well off backgrounds.

Funny enough, though, were Edwards to have a true Jimmy Carter style populist reformism to make the White House less elitist, he would immediately and endlessly be savaged for that, too, just as Jimmy Carter was.

Posted by: El Cid | Nov 13, 2007 2:13:48 PM

Mark-
Congress members aren't exactly the same thing as the rest of government employees so I don't find this analogy to be really relevant. Congress is elected by us, obviously, but then they have the power and control to make the rules. They make sure that their own benefits are safe and protected, but behave hypocritically when it comes to benefits for others. Edwards is simply pointing out that there should not be a separate class (with additional benefits that we all pay for) for any members of the government. This, to me, is very important. Whether or not it works is something else entirely, but people are elected and then almost immediately forget that real people are at the receiving end of the policies that they pass or veto.

Posted by: little tragedy | Nov 13, 2007 2:18:50 PM

it wouldn't pass because besides eternal enemies locked in a death battle for political dominance, Congress is an association that has its own self-interest, which its members seek to protect. Plus, as you know well, who wants to be without healthcare? especially if you're old like many people in Congress? Sure, you can self-insure, but that could cause complications if you switch over, if your premiums rise, etc. Plus there are one's families.

Posted by: eli | Nov 13, 2007 2:26:28 PM

Since is when Garance Franke-Ruta a liberal? After watching her pitiful kowtowing to Althouse on Bloggingheads.tv, I concluded that she's either a faux liberal or a flake (perhaps even both).

Posted by: Kanenas | Nov 13, 2007 2:35:39 PM

Eli:
Congress watches its own self interest? The Democrats aren't doing anything to make that ring true right now. If they were really that serious about their own interests, we'd have impeachment hearings for Darth Vader already and contempt hearings for Harriet Miers and Josh Bolten.

Posted by: Ghost of Tom Joad | Nov 13, 2007 2:36:11 PM

I can't understand the problem people claim to have with this. If you really believe we should have a single-payer system, as I do, you shouldn't have a problem with this. Is it theater? Yes! And it's good! I want every member of Congress who stands in the way of real healthcare reform to have to explain why they should be entitled to health care while I am not. I suspect the people who have a problem with this really don't want health care reform and are afraid to say so. They got theirs, they don't want to rock the boat, so they say, "oh, but it isn't very classy of Edwards to do this, is it?" Guess what? I want you to be uncomfortable. I'm tired of you skulking around in the shadows while I risk losing everything to a major illness (and I *have* health insurance). Lead, follow, or get out of the damn way.

Posted by: A NON | Nov 13, 2007 2:36:25 PM

by the way- anyone as jawbone points out who 'gets' the point, gets it right away, on an emotional level.

I assume you are correct. This may even be a good idea. (but yuck)

I think they actually assume, quite accurately, that White House employees are rather successful and often comparatively well off professionals mostly from rather well off backgrounds.

There is a big difference between being well off and being able to go without your employers health care plan. Most well off people are that way because they have the big, cushy job with great benefits. The folks in the Senate tend to be millionaires who can pay their own way, but this doesn't hold for the average person working in the White House.

They make sure that their own benefits are safe and protected, but behave hypocritically when it comes to benefits for others.

People in congress get six figure salaries. I'm pretty sure basically everyone else in the country with six figure salaries get good health care. There is a huge problem, here, but hypocrisy isn't one of them. (Well, in this exact instance.)

But obviously I'm wrong. I was wrong 15 years ago when I thought Rush Limbaugh would hurt conservatives more than he would help, as he was so obviously an over-the-top, pompous ass. I was wrong about the house banking "scandal".

Whatever works. I think I have a higher opinion of people than they deserve, sometimes.

Posted by: Mark | Nov 13, 2007 2:43:00 PM

...it wouldn't pass...

And that's fine. Just putting the bill in play and standing behind it would make the point--Congress does care about _their_ benefits.

Posted by: anon | Nov 13, 2007 2:43:58 PM

my wife, who is not a political junky, loved edwards' idea when i told her about it.

Posted by: jethro | Nov 13, 2007 2:45:52 PM

He's engaging in doublespeak and the Politics of Parsing.

He promises bold, patently unconstitutional action in front of the crowd--"I will use MY POWER as President and TAKE YOUR HEALTHCARE AWAY."

What he means is that he will ask Congress to use its own power to voluntarily surrender its health insurance.

And, if you think Congressional Democrats are going to appreciate this kind of threat . . .

Posted by: Geek, Esq. | Nov 13, 2007 3:04:40 PM

Good post, Ezra.

Edwards will ratchet up pressure as President to get things done.

Posted by: Tom Wells | Nov 13, 2007 3:06:36 PM

I see a Clinton supporter trying to accuse Edwards of doublespeak. Anything to protect lobbyists, Mr. Geek, Esq.

Posted by: Tom Wells | Nov 13, 2007 3:07:48 PM

He is engaging in doublespeak and the Politics of Parsing. If he actually did what he said he would do, it would be blatantly unconstitutional.

I think Presidential candidates shouldn't promise to violate the Constitution.

Posted by: Geek, Esq. | Nov 13, 2007 3:12:37 PM

Next, Edwards promises that in his administration the lame will walk and the blind will see, and frogs will have fat little wings to help them fly. Mind you, he can't actually do any of these things, but how thrilling! How manly! People love it!

Posted by: ostap | Nov 13, 2007 3:13:56 PM

I always run controversial ideas past a circle of non-activist friends and family, ranging in age from 20-82, including a couple of Republicans.

So far 16 of 16 LOVE it, including three who are ambivalent on the issue.

I think Edwards can wield it effectively. I see no reason why he shouldn't, based on the responses I'm hearing.

Posted by: Kevin Hayden Onassis | Nov 13, 2007 3:14:38 PM

Good idea. Why should American taxpayers pay for Healthcare for Congress when that same Congress lacks the desire to provide a solution for the rest of the country to have the same.

Posted by: tbsa | Nov 13, 2007 3:19:03 PM

It's not violating the Constitution to propose legislation. Taking it away if they don't meet his deadline would be achievable by vetoing the spending bill that covers it, even if that bill comes in later than July.

Posted by: Kevin Hayden | Nov 13, 2007 3:19:47 PM

Does anyone really think members of Congress are going to gamble their families' health insurance on the ability of Congress to pass this legislation?

Come on. They'd be bad fathers, mothers, and spouses to do that.

Moreover, he is promising to violate the Constitution. The saving grace is that he's being disingenuous and misleading.

Posted by: Geek, Esq. | Nov 13, 2007 3:25:58 PM

No he support Obama, but his arguments are to say the least- well just bizzare. Most of which stems a) from not apparently knowing the definition of double speak and b) pretending he doesn't realize there is a dramatic element to politics much like weboy does in his post. i call this the conveniently dumb argument. pretending as if they don't get it allows them to make the arguments they are here making.

Posted by: akaison | Nov 13, 2007 3:26:10 PM

The entire American political establishment is belwildered that a liberal politician would actually have the courage of his convictions to fight for what he believes in.

They. Can't. Handle. It.

Only two candidates have the potential to change America this election cycle: Ron Paul and John Edwards.
And while I would encourage any American to chose a democratic party nominee over any republican, I have little illusion about the potential for real change. Edwards is real change, that's why the pro GOP media dogs tried to destroy him early, so far with success, we'll see if he can fight his way back. So far I like it.

Posted by: Northern Observer | Nov 13, 2007 3:30:30 PM

If he actually did what he said he would do, it would be blatantly unconstitutional.

Right, can't do anything unconstitutional.

However, as president, Edwards would have the power to declare every Congressperson an enemy combatant, ship them off to Gitmo, and use "enhanced interrogation techniques" to determine how they intend to vote.

But taking away their healthcare? That would be wrong.

(I think my head just exploded.)

Posted by: Dorothy | Nov 13, 2007 3:43:37 PM

I find it both frustrating and bitterly amusing that those of us on the left side of the US political spectrum often berate ourselves as policy wonks who can't connect with "ordinary Americans" (itself an odd argument; I think I'm plenty ordinary) but when someone does say something in a way to make that connection, they get berated for not being enough of a policy wonk.

We are so screwed.

Posted by: LarryE | Nov 13, 2007 3:53:57 PM

Re: bitterly amusing

That sums up my view of politics.

Posted by: akaison | Nov 13, 2007 4:10:48 PM

Why wouldn't the Democratic leadership want to use this legislation to hammer away at Republicans?

Ha ha! Yeah right, Ezra, you're really out to lunch if you think those idiots will do anything against their own self-interest.

What a joke.

Posted by: Tony | Nov 13, 2007 4:51:23 PM

I love it. I've been thinking for years that Congress ought to get exactly the same benefits package as, say, Wal-Mart employees.

Posted by: Bella | Nov 13, 2007 5:16:59 PM

you're really out to lunch if you think those idiots will do anything against their own self-interest.

Tony--
shut the f*** up, and pay attention for a second.

*WHETHER IT PASSES OR NOT*, if Edwards just put it in front of Congress it would let one really *BIG* genie out of the bottle, as in "why won't my Congressman support this bill that I *really like*, that the President has proposed?"

Posted by: Captain Goto | Nov 13, 2007 6:18:11 PM

"*WHETHER IT PASSES OR NOT*, if Edwards just put it in front of Congress it would let one really *BIG* genie out of the bottle, as in "why won't my Congressman support this bill that I *really like*, that the President has proposed?""

Anyone who doesn't get this is being deliberately obtuse. No one by accident is that literal.

Posted by: akaison | Nov 13, 2007 6:54:08 PM

I absolutely think it is the right thing to say. As others have commented the simple act of introducing it to Congress would be an eye opener to many Americans who don't believe anything that our politicians say.

At a Manchester, NH rally two weeks ago Mr. Edwards promised that he would use the power of the bully pulpit with Congress members who didn't work to provide Universal Health Care. There is certainly nobody else in the race I believe would be a better advocate for Health Care than John Edwards.

Posted by: MickNH | Nov 13, 2007 6:55:50 PM

Looking at the ad, this is why I would never vote for Edwards. Typical trial lawyer hokum - I will use my powers as president to take away your healthcare. A completely meaningless demagogic statement. What powers are they? Send the 101st Airborne to guard the Capitol Pharmacy? Order the Senate's physicians to be carted off to Guantanamo?

As someone mentioned upstream, members of Congress don't have socialized medicine, they have employer based health care, like many of us do. And like us, they can lose that health care not by presidential fiat, but by losing their jobs. And that power, if I read the Constitution right, remains in the People's hands.

Posted by: umbrelladoc | Nov 13, 2007 7:43:05 PM

Boy, the hate for Edwards on the left as well as the right confirms for me that he is the only candidate who will actually affect "change" as it is so often touted this election.

Everybody but us stupid, blue collar, pinko, lefty, union- lover slobs out here hate this man. Reminds me of FDR being known as a "traitor to his class".

Oh, any umbrelladoc, enough with slamming of trial lawyers, okay? if you hate them, fine. I remind you our last practicing trial lawyer President was Abraham Lincoln. Come to think of it, he was hated by all as well for a long time.

Posted by: DoubtingThomas | Nov 13, 2007 7:58:55 PM

Spot on. Excellent post. Why I'm voting Edwards.

Posted by: Lilybelle | Nov 13, 2007 9:09:46 PM

You know, this is exactly the sort of thing Der Gropinator does out on the left coast (California). He essentially preempts legislative objections to his positions by talking directly to the people in language they understand. And Der Gropinator is highly regarded by a majority of the voters in a deeply blue state.

Posted by: Frogmorten | Nov 13, 2007 9:30:17 PM

As someone mentioned upstream, members of Congress don't have socialized medicine, they have employer based health care, like many of us do.

Yeah, but here's the thing: in the case of Congress, we are their employers. In your own job, who has better health care: you or your boss? Does your boss pay for your health care and not have any of his own, or do you both get pretty much the same package?

Why should our employees in Congress get healthcare when we, their employers, do not?

That's really the question.

Posted by: Mnemosyne | Nov 13, 2007 9:38:55 PM

Doubting Thomas,

Edwards may be less of a Lincoln than Quayle was a Jack Kennedy. "Honest Abe" took a morally principled stand on slavery. When it was expedient Edwards used junk science to win a malpractice case, and helped increase the number of Caesarean sections that women get. "She speaks to you through me," (Edwards) went on in his closing argument. "And I have to tell you right now — I didn't plan to talk about this — right now I feel her. I feel her presence. She's inside me, and she's talking to you." When it was expedient Edwards was a member of the "New Democrat Coalition" in the Senate associated with the DLC, and positioned himself as an electable Southern moderate in the mold of Bill Clinton. When it was expedient he said "I just don't think labor unions are an enormous issue in North Carolina one way or the other. We have a right to work law. I do not support the changing of that law." When it was expedient he said, "Almost no one disagrees with these basic facts: that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a menace; that he has weapons of mass destruction and that he is doing everything in his power to get nuclear weapons." When it was expedient, despite having enriched himself in his legal career, made 8 million dollars at a hedge fund "mainly in order to learn about the relationships between financial markets and poverty.”

Now when it's expedient he is portraying himself as populist. I fear you are getting played.

Compare to Lincoln's clarity on slavery and hear echoes about Bush's policy on torture and detentions. "I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world-enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites-causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty-criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self-interest."

And for the record, I like Obama but will accept Hillary.

Posted by: umbrelladoc | Nov 13, 2007 9:51:13 PM

Well, for what it's worth, members of congress and all other Federal employees have health insurance due to the efforts of past Democratic congresses. Would we bite off our nose to spite our face? The reason we have it is because we worked to put it through. The FEHBP would not be in existence if not for the colletive bargaining agreements of Federal unions also. Congress aside, the attempt was to get all Federal employees health insurance and Congress was part of the deal!

Posted by: Andre | Nov 13, 2007 10:02:05 PM

As to the argument that removing healthcare from Congress would be unconstitutional: baloney! There is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees healthcare for members of Congress. It probably would be illegal for any such legislation to take effect until the next Congress was elected, however.
Many members of the House undoubtedly already are aware of what it is like not to have health care - see the votes for SCHIP.
It would be nice to have a national health system enacted solely because the legislators think it is the right thing, but if a little fear helps it along, I won't argue.

Posted by: Doug | Nov 13, 2007 10:50:56 PM

As to the argument that removing healthcare from Congress would be unconstitutional: baloney!

You can take away health care, but constitutionally the change can only take effect after an election cycle.

Amendment XXVII

No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

Posted by: Mark | Nov 14, 2007 1:50:58 AM

""Honest Abe" took a morally principled stand on slavery."

The kindest thing to be said for anyone making the above statement is that they are ignorant of the historical record and the opinion of Lincoln's contemporaries regarding his shifting positions on slavery. Yes Lincoln opposed slavery but his position on slavery wasn't static. His evolution on this issue is one of the great political and personal sagas of US history. He certainly wasn't universally acclaimed as being morally principled on the issue at the time. See Frederick Douglas.

Posted by: WB Reeves | Nov 14, 2007 9:28:08 AM

Until you can find me the Case that says "Benefits" = "Compensation", don't pretend that anybody knows whether John Edwards' plan is Constitutional or not. I support his plan and think its creative and bold. Its amazing how little thought goes into these issues for the garden variety voter. Read up on this issue - While there is an argument that a bill submitted by Edwards to cut Legislator's insurance coverage could be invalidated as unconstitutional if enacted... a) there is also an argument that it is perfectly constitutional, based upon the idea that health insurance benefits do not fall within the term "compensation", and the intent of the Amendment had nothing to do with insurance benefits, but rather is an overly broad way of preventing Congress from raising their own pay while they are still in office.

John Edwards' is an incredible candidate. Obama, while he has plusses, endorsed JOE LIEBERMAN over Ned Lamont! You read that right. This to me is the quintessential example of what is wrong with Obama, who generally plays it way too safe and is more "establishment" then most people realize, in my opinion.

Posted by: Jon | Nov 14, 2007 5:37:36 PM

Umbrella, OMG! you mean Edwards won't go down as the most popular and respected President in history (Abe)? Do you really think a lot of us who support him are under the delusion that he's going to end a civil war and free the slaves? Shit, FDR was no Lincoln, but he was still FDR. I want Edwards, but will accept anyone buy Clinton. Well, unless Joe Biden suddenly catches fire.

Posted by: soullite | Nov 14, 2007 5:52:46 PM

Soullite, I wasn't the one that compared Edwards to Lincoln. Sorry, I had a Lloyd Bentsen moment there. And Reeves, I'm well aware of the history of Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. Ignorant would be the word to describe anyone who would suggest Lincoln's political realities as the nation was breaking apart would be at all comparable to what Edwards has done for political expendiency.
Policy issues aside, everything I've learned while being on this planet tells me not to trust John Edwards.

Posted by: umbrelladoc | Nov 14, 2007 11:10:40 PM

My political conclusions about what people were aiming for and why have been pretty spot on for the last couple of decades, and my experience has, surprisingly, led me to trust John Edwards (to the degree that such a word applies in our political system). That is, if you're not looking for a political savior, which I'm not -- and my first qualification is to look for the people least likely to spend their time and energies shooting down the things I care about or fighting for the things I oppose. And among the people who seem like they are actually close to winning, that's him.

Posted by: El Cid | Nov 14, 2007 11:31:06 PM

Ignorant would be the word to describe anyone who would suggest Lincoln's political realities as the nation was breaking apart would be at all comparable to what Edwards has done for political expendiency.

As if Lincoln never acted from political expediency. As for the unsuitability of comparisons between Lincoln and Edwards, I can only observe that one foolish comparison doesn't justify another.

Posted by: WB Reeves | Nov 14, 2007 11:54:06 PM

First, what makes anyone think the members of Congress won't say fine...take my health insurance. They are all wealthy, they will not like being threatened, and they will balk at executive overreach. Out of spite they will buy their own insurance.

Second, we have serious problems facing this nation that the Prez alone cannot fix. You think an admin that starts out with these sorts of threats will be able to accomplish ANYTHING about ANY of the seriously difficult problems we have in front of us?

Rhetoric is fine, and as stumping goes this is a really great line.

But I want a new Prez that will solve some of these really pressing issues...not continue the Bushlike bludgeoning of the other branches of our government.

Edwards is my second choice candidate. I love his fire. I agree with most of his rhetoric, even this tactic.

But if he's serious that this is the approach he would take, then I don't want him as Prez. I want no more battling against each other.

I want problems solved.

Posted by: G Davis | Nov 15, 2007 1:36:00 AM

But if he's serious that this is the approach he would take, then I don't want him as Prez. I want no more battling against each other.

I want problems solved.

You really think that the health care "problem" can be solved without a battle? It sounds as though you think that there is some sort of fundamental agreement about what we need to do when the truth is that there isn't even a general agreement that something needs to be done. The fact is that some folks are making a good thing for themselves out of the status quo and they're not going to go without putting up a fight.

Posted by: WB Reeves | Nov 15, 2007 2:03:31 AM

"There is no excuse for politicians in Washington having healthcare when you don't have healthcare."
Is there anyone who disagrees with this?

Posted by: brass tacks | Nov 15, 2007 7:20:36 AM

"There is no excuse for politicians in Washington having healthcare when you don't have healthcare."

Is there anyone who disagrees with this?

Posted by: brass tacks

Yes. I disagree with this. In the literalist spirit of much of this discussion, I should point out that in fact the opposite is true: I have heard many excuses for this situation.

Posted by: El Cid | Nov 15, 2007 9:26:33 AM

Reeves, for those as literal as you, I should have used the word bludgeon rather than battle in the part you quoted...sorry.

The point remains, you start out bludgeoning one branch with another and we stay where we are now.

I, and everyone else, understand there will be a battle about healthcare. I also understand there are battles everyday in government about policy.

There is a distinct difference between policy battles and the battles we see now between the branches. If Edwards follows through with this sort of tactic, he will certainly draw attention to the issue, but he will also most certainly sustain the nonsense power struggle between the branches we have now.

I don't like the my way or the highway approach of the Bush admin. I wouldn't like it any more from an Edwards admin.

That said, this makes good theatre. If nothing else, Edwards will draw attention to some of the serious issues this country faces.

Posted by: G Davis | Nov 15, 2007 2:09:57 PM

Reeves, for those as literal as you, I should have used the word bludgeon rather than battle in the part you quoted...sorry.

It's bad form to blame others for your own poor choice of words. I paid you the compliment of assuming you knew how to express yourself. Sorry if that offended you.

Posted by: WB Reeves | Nov 15, 2007 6:55:01 PM

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