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October 31, 2007

Vouchers and Health Insurance

If you want to see, like, six, really unconvincing, but really pissed-off and insulting arguments for vouchers, scroll through McArdle's place for awhile. It'll raise your blood pressure. At least until you're overtaken be sheer befuddlement.

Her argument, in a nutshell, is, "Either you agree that poor kids should be allowed to exit until the system works for them, or they don't." What? Since when do libertarians think making something cost money is the same as prohibiting you to do it? Poor kids can exit the system. They just need to become rich kids. But does Megan apply this theory widely? Does she agree that the Federal Government should pay for all Americans to have health insurance from any insurer, either public or private, that they want, at least until Aetna begins working better? Because if she does, then I've massively misunderstood her writing up till this point. If she doesn't, however, then her constant screech of hypocrite throughout this argument makes no sense -- particularly given that she has awesome, employer-funded insurance, while all millions of Americans are trapped on the individual market.

Indeed, unlike with vouchers, we actually know that being uninsured is bad for you, and that the poor have better outcomes when they're given full insurance. But, like with the schools, they -- not to mention many in the middle class -- are currently unable to purchase exit from their shit insurance -- or uninsurance -- systems. But then, systems don't seem to be much under analysis here. Megan's posts are remarkable for their lack of data as to why vouchers are actually superior. Which is because there is no data on that point -- vouchers haven't proven themselves in any of the largescale experiments we've conducted. What Megan is offering is "exit," not improvement. A big ladling of libertarian economic theory onto the trays of the poor. And if you're not down with that, well then, you hate the poor.

October 31, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

Yeah, I know, I'm becoming a nuissance, but for the umpteenth time: Why the obsession with McMegan? Who cares about what this nitwit writes, except you and some republicans who studied economics, but didn't really get it? Can't you at least report about the stupidity of another Moron McClueless for a change, pls?
|-(

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 9:33:43 AM

Gray: Ezra and McArdle are friends. Like Matt Yglesias's place, the links here are dominated by a single social circle. There's nothing intrinsic to Megan McArdle's actual work that makes it compelling per se; Ezra just reads her a lot because he knows her socially.

Posted by: Christmas | Oct 31, 2007 9:39:04 AM

No, I read her a lot because she primarily writes about social policy issues, which are the actual issues that interest me, and her writing gives me a chance to explore arguments I wouldn't otherwise take on. I'm far better friends with Dave Weigel, Kay Steiger, Dana Goldstein, Kevin Drum, etc, than with Megan, but their writing doesn't intersect with mine as usefully. And I linked to Megan long before I ever knew her, long before she moved to DC. That's how we got to know each other.

If you don't like who I link to, or how I run this site, you can go elsewhere, or start your own blog. Otherwise, when you see her name, swallow hard and move onto the next post. I will keep linking to posts of Megan's, and I'm tired of seeing the comment sections hijacked by meta-commentary on why I do it. If you have something to say about vouchers, or insurance and exit, that's what this thread is for.

Posted by: Ezra | Oct 31, 2007 9:46:42 AM

"And I linked to Megan long before I ever knew her, long before she moved to DC."

Ok, so it's a bit of a tradition. Thx for answering, btw. But I'm still wondering: How much influence does McMegan have in the wingnutosphere? Is she on the same level, say, as the Capt'n or as old girl Althouse?

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 9:55:15 AM

Without detracting from the basic point that vouchers are a bad idea, one difference must be noted. The government does already spend money on kids' education, but not on people's health insurance.

Posted by: gregor | Oct 31, 2007 10:06:18 AM

Wow, it's almost like poor people have No Exit from the current market-based insurance system.

Posted by: SP | Oct 31, 2007 10:06:21 AM

I don't know as to the wing-o-sphere. Megan has influence in elite policy circles -- her role as a libertarian social policy commentator is roughly similar to mine as a liberal social policy commentator, which is why it's important to offer rebuttals to her arguments.

Posted by: Ezra | Oct 31, 2007 10:07:31 AM

Ah, thx for the insight, Ezra! And I'm sry that I'm such a pain in the a**.
:D

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 10:10:51 AM

Ezra, this post is insane. The government doesn't currently insure anyone, so the analogy doesn't make any sense. Why would Megan not wanting the government to pay for fixing a problem it doesn't cause prove an obstacle to an argument that it should pay to fix problems it does cause?

Megan's point is that the government essentially forces poor kids to go to bad schools. Whether vouchers work or not isn't the point at all - the point is that the current system manifestly doesn't work and is government-sponsored classism, so we should do something other than the current nothing we're doing.

Megan also supports government health insurance for the poor, so your analogy is crazy for two reasons.

Posted by: Ryan | Oct 31, 2007 10:46:52 AM

I'm tired of seeing the comment sections hijacked by meta-commentary on why I do it.

Ezra, you almost sound like a MSM journalist defending himself from blogs in this post.

Basically I agree with Ryan. We already pay for kids to go to school, Megan is just saying we could do it differently. This isn't the same thing as saying we should pay for something that currently isn't being payed for.

Posted by: Mark | Oct 31, 2007 11:18:48 AM

The glaring hole in Megan's screed is that none of these Voucher experiments, such as the one in Minnesota, provide any data to measure student peformance. In fact, voucher schemes almost always explicity reject the idea. I'm very liberal and a strong supporter of public education, but if there was some empirical data that could support the voucher case for better student outcomes, particularly in our worst schools, I would listen and possibly even support the idea. But voucher supporters never seem eager or remotely intersted in the idea of providing data. Megan is no exception to this.

Posted by: hebisner | Oct 31, 2007 11:22:54 AM

"Ezra, you almost sound like a MSM journalist defending himself from blogs in this post."

Maybe surprisingly, but Ezra is only human, too, and I really raised this topic for the umpteenth time...
:D

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 11:24:31 AM

"This isn't the same thing as saying we should pay for something that currently isn't being payed for."

It is. You seem to think that it doesn't matter if the taxpayers' buck is spend in a private or a public school, but in real life, this isn't so easy. You may fire teachers when pupils opt for private schools, ok, but the fix costs of maintenance, administration etc. will stay. I guess that for every dollar going into a voucher, at least 50 additional cents will be necessary for those costs. Of course this will be more expensive than the status quo.

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 11:28:55 AM

"But voucher supporters never seem eager or remotely intersted in the idea of providing data."

Of course not. The hidden idea behind this plan is solely to provide the parents who are sending their kids to private schools (a group leaning republican) with another tax break. This isn't about the kids wellbeing at all, it's just another Rovian plot. And that's why there isn't any data supporting this.

Posted by: Gray | Oct 31, 2007 11:33:30 AM

I want to be clear that I fully support gathering data, and I would bet my lifes' savings that Megan does too. That's obviously not the only concern here - as Megan points out, there's also some pretty vile hypocrisy at play (freedom's okay for rich people but not for poor people). There's also a sense in which we're still Americans and we're still supposed to value freedom over not-freedom unless not-freedom is going to make us better off in some important way. Since there seems to be no evidence that forcing poor parents to send their kids to public schools is better than allowing them to send their kids where they want, there's a liberty argument to made here too. I suspect Megan (and I) would continue to make that argument until you can show us that government schools perform better than private ones rather than repeatedly reminding us that all schools are equally good at mis-educating kids.

Also, a second point Megan makes is relevant to this data question: whether you believe it or not, a lot of rich liberals don't seem to think the data is inconclusive. If it's actually the case that using vouchers to send poor kids to different schools won't help, then why do rich people seem to think it's so important to get their kids into different schools? This is the hypocrisy argument: you can repeat the "vouchers don't work" mantra all you want, but it's awfully hollow when your actions are the exact opposite of what you claim. (The "you" here is general; I make no aspersions on the character of Ezra or his commenters.)

Posted by: Ryan | Oct 31, 2007 11:46:36 AM

You say you link to McArdle because "her writing gives me a chance to explore arguments I wouldn't otherwise take on." So would a trip to the head injury ward, and you could do some good there. It would be more illuminating if you debated somebody who has an intelligent thought once in a while. "Rich liberals who oppose vouchers hate poor children" isn't an argument; it's a cross between a tantrum and a fart. And proving McArdle an idiot is like shooting stupid fish in a barrel.

Posted by: Boring | Oct 31, 2007 11:54:01 AM

Isn't another problem with Ezra's post is that kids are forced to go to school? Megan's right that without vouchers they are literally *forced* into public schools. But it's not the same with not having medical insurance.

Although, as a commenter noted above, Megan does support health insurance for the poor.

Posted by: Selfreferencing | Oct 31, 2007 11:56:11 AM

Ryan, you say "The government doesn't currently insure anyone".
But this is false - everyone with health insurance is getting government money. Either the money is provided directly, as for Bush and Guiliani's care; or it is provided via tax breaks for the corporations that are paying directly; or it is provided via tax breaks on individual health care costs. Ezra has the actual dollar amounts in some of his old posts, if you care to look. Basically the US government pays much the same for health insurance as other OECD countries. It's just we have to pay the same again in individual costs because the US healthcare system is so damned inefficient.

Further, you opine, "I suspect Megan (and I) would continue to make that argument until you can show us that government schools perform better than private ones"
This isn't the question at all. The question is, will vouchers allow for better outcomes ? The evidence does not support this, and Megan (Jane Galt) is not interested in the evidence, or even in measuring the difference. Cf please the comment threads at Laura's place,
http://11d.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/hypocrisy-of-th.html
and the response to this thread by Jane, noted here,
http://11d.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/and-the-voucher.html
Of course this elides the fundamental issue of what do you mean by "perform better", and how that performance is to be measured. However I have a day job so won't get into all that.

Posted by: Doug K | Oct 31, 2007 12:12:31 PM

". It'll raise your blood pressure."
My doctor told me I had to stop reading McArdle . . .

" If it's actually the case that using vouchers to send poor kids to different schools won't help, then why do rich people seem to think it's so important to get their kids into different schools?"

Because they're rich. Different rules apply.

Posted by: Dan S. | Oct 31, 2007 1:04:47 PM

Why do you only ever refer to experimental american voucher programmes, rather than the established systems of northern Europe?

Posted by: Marcin Tustin | Oct 31, 2007 1:08:41 PM

Now, more importantly on vouchers, if the evidence is that they don't make things worse, but make things cheaper, why are you against them? Such systems would then allow more money to be spent on other government-provided goods or on tax cuts, either of which would increase social welfare, without making any person worse off.

Posted by: Marcin Tustin | Oct 31, 2007 1:13:47 PM

It always surprises me how heated and caustic the debate from school voucher (health and school) supporters can be. Perhaps they are at odds with their personal politics in contrast with their support for what is technically a government aid program for the wealthy?

Here in Utah, the school voucher debate (up for vote Nov 6th) has taken many nasty turns. The latest may also violate several laws, as it seems our local pro-voucher camp Parents for Choice in Education have (according to the Utah Democratic Party website) been caught spamming, setting up fake "anti-voucher" websites, illegal use of local news media logos in their campaign flyers, and most recently buying votes with a $10 per documented vote offer to their volunteers/canvassers.

If you're interested you can read more at the UDP sister site, Utah Amicus: http://utahamicus.blogspot.com/2007/10/can-you-believe-anything-they-say.html
and
http://utahamicus.blogspot.com/2007/10/ksl-takes-issue-with-parents-for-choice.html

Posted by: jasonthe | Oct 31, 2007 1:24:13 PM

Since there seems to be no evidence that forcing poor parents to send their kids to public schools is better than allowing them to send their kids where they want

Huh? By this logic, do you agree that we shouldn't force poor people to go the emergency room? The government should provide them with the same specialists Steve Forbes gets to see?

Posted by: nate | Oct 31, 2007 2:12:22 PM

"Since when do libertarians think making something cost money is the same as prohibiting you to do it?"

Touche,

Megan isn't acting like a "pure" libertarian demanding the whole public system be shut down immediately.

She has wisely separated the issues of government funded education and government run education.

But I'll tackle the question myself. (Megan I think touched on this, but I'll risk being redundant.)

It's not just that going private costs money. The current system that gives free education to all who choose the public system despite their wealth.
This acts as a predatory pricing scheme, which kills off competition.

This has in essence not only trapped the poor into public schools, but also much of the middle class, due to options drying up due to monopolistic practices.

Posted by: Shawn Levasseur | Oct 31, 2007 2:35:05 PM

And I linked to Megan long before I ever knew her, long before she moved to DC. That's how we got to know each other.

And since then your links to her have increased dramatically. Are you really disputing that who you know personally doesn't affect who you link to?

If you don't like who I link to, or how I run this site, you can go elsewhere, or start your own blog.

And if I don't like the way professional journalists stay cozy with politicians and with each other, I can start publishing my own newspaper, right? Look, for years bloggers have been criticizing the dreaded MSM for being too cozy, too inbred, and too insular - for having a cocktail party atmosphere that limits the national discourse to whatever the cool kids think is appropriate at any given moment. Right now the most prominent wonky liberal blogs are all linked to each other, not just on the web, but in real life, many of them actually living with each other and hanging out on a regular basis. You really expect us to believe this doesn't affect who you read, who you link to, and what kinds of ideas you consider mainstream? If you want to prove me wrong, you could always start linking regularly to people you aren't hanging out with all the time - maybe even people to your left instead of to your right.

Posted by: Christmas | Oct 31, 2007 3:10:50 PM

BTW I think that a much stronger case can be made for socialized medicine than can be made for socialized schools. Yet we have the latter and not the former. Politics is weird!

Posted by: Floccina | Oct 31, 2007 3:39:51 PM

2 things to consider:
Home schooling is growing fast.
Some low income earners have their children in private schools.

Posted by: Floccina | Oct 31, 2007 3:57:15 PM

Floccina, home schooling amounts to about 2% of the total population of kids, according to most recent statistics from the Department of Education (link in my post). 90% of kids are in public schools. The rest are in private schools. Those numbers have not shifted dramatically in years, despite homeschoolers enthusiasm for selling their choice to exit the system. At best, you could maybe get to 5% of the population in home schooling situations - but that's a stretch, and all of this has to do with most women working outside the home, especially when their school age kids are, you know, in school.

Second, I'm sorry Ezra's gotten touchy about this, but I think it remains fair to ask if Megan McArdle is really advancing a discussion on any of this. Her libertarian approach to the issue of eduction really adds very littel to the discussion, Ezra writes posts saying essentially that... and then he comes back and says it again. I'm happy, usually, to skip past these; they do absolutely nothing for me (as does the "she's influential in policy circles" which either speaks volumes about the weakness of said circles, or the irrelevance of the policies they advocate), as do most posts on education these days, where everyone is going basically in circles and not rewally looking at the big picture.

And again, as a point to Floccina and others who are highly critical of public schools - you can't voucher out 90% of kids, or even 50% - they have nowhere to go. Nowhere. The end run that conservatives have tried to do around the public school system is largely failing, a big reason that conservatives selling "a party of ideas" about the GOP has lead to Republican disaster. Vouchers, charter schools... all tried, all incrementally positive, but by no means a fix for the system as a whole. Now what?

Posted by: weboy | Oct 31, 2007 4:10:39 PM

Keep taking incrementally positive steps? Its not like you know we have anything close to a systemic fix that we know of.

Posted by: TomO | Oct 31, 2007 4:50:51 PM

Further, you opine, "I suspect Megan (and I) would continue to make that argument until you can show us that government schools perform better than private ones"
This isn't the question at all. The question is, will vouchers allow for better outcomes ?

How is this not the question? We're still Americans, for crying out loud! I don't care how liberal you are - and I'm only moderately liberal, so maybe I'm getting this wrong - you aren't supposed to think a government solution is the default unless the private sector can do better. You're supposed to think a government solution is correct only when the private sector does worse. And the evidence doesn't seem to indicate that the private sector is worse in this case.

Posted by: Ryan | Oct 31, 2007 4:54:51 PM

As for insurance and whether the government technically does it, that's a conversation for another time. I support UHC so I don't want to argue about it. I'm just saying that there's nothing obviously crazy about Megan opposing UHC and supporting school vouchers - the government doesn't really force people to have bad insurance in a direct sense. Arguing about economic incidence would be like trying to tell Republicans that a budget deficit is actually a tax increase or trying to tell organized labor that increasing our tariffs with China will always make the US worse off - it's true but you're better off trying to bathe a cat.

Posted by: Ryan | Oct 31, 2007 5:01:07 PM

What is the worst that could happen if we tried vouchers in DC, Detroit, Cleveland, LA and other liberal ran school districts? They already graduate under 50%, violence is out of control, kids saftey i at risk every day. Things can't get any worse, why not given them an honest try and see what happens.

Size and accountability is the problem with our schools today. Teachers, board members, princiapls are not accountable to anyone. THey fail year end and year out with no threat to their employement or position, they have no motivation to do better. If vouchers where implemented and a large number of small schools where created to compete for the money things woudl improve.

How do private schools compete, on the perceived quality of their eduation. If they don't do a good job parents spend their money at another school. Why would the same principals not hold true with money from vouchers?

Posted by: Nate O | Oct 31, 2007 5:07:52 PM

I think Cleveland has a voucher system.

The problem is limited resources. Is the gov't going to both pay for vouchers and make up for the money lost to public schools when students leave? Otherwise, vouchers create a race to the exit, and there aren't enough private schools in most inner cities to accomodate all of the students who would want to leave.

Also, like health insurance, many of the best kids would be the ones to leave, just as the healthiest people are the ones who get private insurance, which would leave gov't to pay for the most expensive kids to educate and sick people to insure.

Posted by: bob | Oct 31, 2007 5:43:49 PM

For all of you who think that there aren't enough private schools: consider that it is possible for people to build new ones. Even better, buy up the physical shells of discarded and bankrupt public schools, and run a decent private school.

Posted by: Marcin Tustin | Oct 31, 2007 8:12:00 PM

Marcin, I think the question is scale. You can bring thousands of kids into home schooling, even thousands into new private schools. But you will still have millions of kids in public schools, unless we attempt some especially radical change, which you may favor, but which, in practical terms, is unlikely, at least for now. Taking the 90% of kids in public schools down to 85% would be a huge change... but 85% of kids in public schools would really still require a major effort on the public system too. It's the question of scale, I think, where the question of vouchers causing massive change starts to break down.

Posted by: weboy | Oct 31, 2007 8:47:11 PM

(Herbeisner): "... if there was some empirical data that could support the voucher case for better student outcomes, particularly in our worst schools, I would listen and possibly even support the idea. But voucher supporters never seem eager or remotely intersted in the idea of providing data."

There is abundant evidence.

Gerard Lassibile and Lucia Navarro Gomez
"Organization and Efficiency of Educational Systems: some empirical findings", pg. 16,
Comparative Education , Vol. 36 #1, 2000, Feb.
"Furthermore, the regression results indicate that countries where private education is more widespread perform significantly better than countries where it is more limited. The result showing the private sector to be more efficient is similar to those found in other contexts with individual data (see, for example, Psucharopoulos, 1987; Jiminez, et. al, 1991).
This finding should convince countries to reconsider policies that reduce the role of the private sector in the field of education".

Joshua Angrist,

NBER Reporter, summer, 2003.

In a recently published paper,(5) my collaborators and I studied what appears to be the largest school voucher program to date.... Our study compares voucher applicants who won a voucher in the lottery to those who lost. ... A comparison of voucher winners and losers shows that three years after the lotteries were held, winners were 15 percentage points more likely to have attended private school and were about 10 percentage points more likely to have finished eighth grade, primarily because they were less likely to repeat grades. Lottery winners also scored 0.2 standard deviations higher on standardized tests. A follow-up study in progress shows that voucher winners also were more likely to apply to college. On balance, our study provides some of the strongest evidence to date for the possible benefits of demand-side financing of secondary schooling, at least in a developing country setting.

More evidence...
James Tooley in independent schools in developing countries,
here, here, and here.
Here's School Reform News on Sweden's school voucher policy.
Here's a summary of international evidence.
Here's a survey of evidence from Colombia and Chile.
Yet another paper on Columbia.
Sweden.
Denmark.

Other, indirect evidence (from the relation between institutional structure and system performance), supports policies which give to each individual parent the power to determine which institution shall receive the subsidy which taxpayers allot to her children.

(Grey): " You seem to think that it doesn't matter if the taxpayers' buck is spend in a private or a public school, but in real life, this isn't so easy. You may fire teachers when pupils opt for private schools, ok, but the fix costs of maintenance, administration etc. will stay. I guess that for every dollar going into a voucher, at least 50 additional cents will be necessary for those costs. Of course this will be more expensive than the status quo."

There are no fixed costs, just costs which change more slowly. School districts handle fluctuations in enrollment all the time.

Posted by: Malcolm Kirkpatrick | Oct 31, 2007 8:57:07 PM

I'm very familiar with Cleveland, as a city as a (w)hole that place is beyond repair, if crooked politicians approve crooked charter schools to replace crooked school board you really haven't done anything.

As for the arguments of their not being enough charter schools and flight of the top students where already dealing with it. Both Cleveland and Detroit are closing schools for lack of students, populations are declining quickly. If the suburbs can build schools to take these students why can't charter? To the second point any parent that really cares about their kid already pulled them out of Cleveland years ago. They either moved to one of the burbs or private school. The good students left years ago that’s why they graduate under 50%. Cats out of the bag, these districts are already dying. What people are trying to avoid already happened.

Posted by: Nate O | Oct 31, 2007 11:30:11 PM

"Megan has influence in elite policy circles"

You're shitting me.

No, seriously, you're shitting me. Right? Please, please, tell me that this is some sort of bad joke.
_____

Nate O:
". . . liberal r[u]n school districts . . ."
I've seen this idea a couple of times today, and it's rather puzzling. I mean, yes, many of these cities have liberal-ish local gov't, but - I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here.

"Teachers, board members, princiapls are not accountable to anyone. THey fail year end and year out with no threat to their employement or position, they have no motivation to do better."
Er, Nate, there's this thing, name of NCLB . . .

But anyway, as a former urban public school teacher married to a urban public school teacher (and the kid of two urban public school teachers), there is indeed a motivation to do better: to help the kids learn and make something of themselves, which is why a lot of us got into the field in the first place. 'Course, it gets a bit demotivating, having it constantly demonstrated that teachers and poor kids are considered slightly better than sewage, but . . .

"Why would the same principals
Quick&dirty rule of thumb: If it's the person in charge of a school, they're supposedly the pal of the kids there, so they're the principal. Principle, on the other hand, deals with fundamental assumptions, laws, etc. (although it gets more complicated - if it has to do with money or the most important member of a group or set, it's also pal - uh, because they're important, and you'd trust them to handle financial matters? Ok, close enough).


Posted by: Dan S. | Oct 31, 2007 11:43:28 PM

My point exactly Dan S, My IQ is top 2% but thanks to my public school education I don't know the difference between principal and principle. And I could swear they stopped teaching spelling at the 4th grade! Even spell check can't figure out what I'm saying half the time.

There are some incredible teachers who make true scrafices and should have their priase sung as heros. The problem is the other 40, 50, 60 or whatever percent one believes that suck. I have never heard of a teacher being fired for just not being good at their job. Once your past probation your in for life. So what sort of education do the students of those x% bad teachers get? Now take cleveland and the burbs where I went to school a few years, if your a good teacher and care are you likely to stay in Cleveland and teach or move to one of the burbs? If the good teachers leave Cle and move to the burbs then the x% rotten teacher ratio will increase will it not? In the burb I lived we had one of the best districts in the state, excellanet teachers, caring parents, great place to raise kids. Read the Plain Dealer and socialize with people educated in Cleveland and you can tell the difference. We didn't spend more per pupil we spent it better and parnets cared. No one is saying all teachers are bad but their are bad teachers and most of them are in urban schools. Unfortuently before HS we moved from the great school disctrict out west to a horrible one. My first year of HS was stuff I already did in 7th and 8th grade. Lost interest ditched school and got nothing out of it. From experience every school district that I have come across that I would never send a kid to has been ran by liberals, I'm sure there are many factors that go into this but as a shollow observation I have never seen a public school system ran by conservatives I would be scared to send a child to. Just an observation.

Posted by: Nate O | Nov 1, 2007 1:10:16 PM

I blogged at Megan's site for a while. What I noticed was that her thinking on health care was greatly influenced by her inability to understand the germ theory of disease. Which theory arose before the NeoClassical Economics which forms the bedrock of libertarian thought arose. Megan has an understanding of how disease is communicated that would embarass a third grader. She tried to pull out of this by talking about vacinations. Which are not the point: all sorts of things don't have vacinnations.

Megan appears to be someone who has lead a sheltered life. Her whole and complete understanding of health care issues is: old=sick, young=healthy. The idea that diseases, like her asthma, have an 'etiology' which includes an infectious component, is beyond her intellectual capacity.

What is a venerable institution like The Atlantic thinking of, putting up a total airhead like Megan as representing 'libertarian' ideas? Any random LP party hack could do a more beleivable job.

Posted by: dalea | Nov 2, 2007 2:40:45 AM

As the de facto administrator of the Security Fix blog, I've spent many an hour deleting spammy links left in the comments section -
- comments that usually lead back to the same kinds of Web sites you most commonly see advertised in junk e-mail.

Posted by: Garri Azz | Feb 16, 2008 12:13:48 AM

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