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October 04, 2007

Liberal Hawks and The Last Kiss.

A few years ago, you could have imagined any number of movies for the liberal hawks to watch. "The Battle of Algiers." "Dr. Strangelove." "Hearts and Minds." It wouldn't have occurred to many to add in the slightly dark, slightly goofy, Zach Braff vehicle, "The Last Kiss." But, increasingly, that movie's message appears most relevant. In particular, the liberal hawks should pay attention to a scolding Tom Wilkinson gives to the solipsistic Zach Braff. "What you feel only matters to you," he spits. "It's what you do, to the people around you, that matters. That's all that matters."

This shouldn't be necessary to say, but increasingly, it seems like the only point worth making to the commentariat. American politics isn't about you. It's not about your ideas, or your personal vision of the world, or your purity. Contemporary politics is not a landscape awaiting your morality plays and exhibitions of ethical decisiveness. It is not yours.

It is the impact of your ideas, and your commentary, that matters. That's all that matters. Yet years after their sustained dance of personal regard and self involvement helped blind the liberal hawks to the reality of George W. Bush's war, one of them, Roger Cohen, is retreading the same ground, wondering why his continued advocacy for war, (or at least continual attacks on its opponents) is folded into the critiques of the neocons.

Here's why: Roger Cohen is not president. George W. Bush is. And until Roger Cohen's foreign policy vision integrates itself with an understanding of American power, and how ideas interact with the current administration, he is, effectively, a neoconservative, or, worse, an enabler of the neoconservatives who's able to advocate for their policy agenda without needing to answer for their failures.

Cohen may not, personally, think like Bill Kristol. But he certainly writes like him. "Neocon, for many, has become shorthand for neocon-Zionist conspiracy," he says, naming no names, and instead offering a simple, generalized accusation of anti-semitism against all those who question the neoconservatives. "Baghdad is closer to Sarajevo than the left has allowed," he writes, obliterating the difference between a bombing campaign undertaken to end an ongoing genocide and a ground invasion undertaken to unearth weapons that didn't exist, overturn a regime we couldn't replace, and forcibly impose a system of governance that lacked foundations. "MoveOn.org is the Petraeus-insulting face of never-set-foot-in-a-war-zone liberalism," he scoffs, having never, himself, fought in a war, but nevertheless adopting the authority of those who have.

These are not arguments. They are smears. They are attacks aimed at degrading the credibility, rather than the beliefs, of the coalition that opposes the Iraq War. And in intent and effect, they are indistinguishable from Bill Kristol's worst columns, save for the possibility that they are more effective, because they ostensibly come from within the Left, rather than outside of it.

Cohen would no doubt respond that he is not a neoconservative, but a liberal interventionist. "Distinction matters," he protests. "The neocon taste for American empire is not the liberal hawk’s belief in the bond between American power and freedom’s progress." But this war, and any that occur until January 2009, will not be conducted by Roger Cohen. They will be conducted by neoconservatives animated by a taste for American empire. And so the distinction does not matter, because any hawkish actions will be undertaken and overseen by those on the wrong side of it. Roger Cohen may feel like he is a liberal hawk, and thus distinct. But what Roger Cohen feels does not matter, because Roger Cohen does not control any branch of the American military. Who he empowers, and which actors in American politics find their ideas legitimized by his columns, is all that matters. And in that, he is worse than a neoconservative. He's a liberal hawk who knows better, but whose interest in writing about his own virtue overwhelms his judgments concerning the actual actions of those who wield power. He is not a neoconservative. He is a narcissist.

October 4, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

Not sure about the Last Kiss lead in, but very good post.

Posted by: Christopher Colaninno | Oct 4, 2007 3:42:45 PM

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

Excellent post.

Posted by: WB Reeves | Oct 4, 2007 3:46:22 PM

anybody who terms a centrist like Yglesias a leftist is simply deluded. Matt's a fine writer, and an intersting thinker, but Yglesias: Left :: Cheez Whiz: cheese .

Posted by: mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | Oct 4, 2007 3:47:42 PM

Exactly what I've been thinking for a while, in that many 'liberal hawks' seemed to think that their fantasies of how great things would turn out in Iraq would in and of themselves weigh more heavily than the realities which would be handled by mere mortals.

They were not then morally responsible for how and what actually happened in Iraq, but only morally responsible for what they intended, or wished, to have happened.

Posted by: El_Cid | Oct 4, 2007 3:47:47 PM

I see your point, but I have trouble with the notion that we shouldn't ever express our personal beliefs about the way policy should be conducted because something we say might be twisted and taken out of context. If you believe saying anything except the party line is bad, because you are afraid that a moderate hawkish or interventionist view might possibly be an enabler of radicals on the other side, well, you are basically kissing goodbye any hope of ever having an honest dialogue with the opposition. You may be that cynical, but going about life assuming bad faith on the part of everyone else doesn't, in the long term, get you that far.

Posted by: HFS | Oct 4, 2007 3:53:08 PM

Excellently said.

Posted by: Pooh | Oct 4, 2007 3:56:27 PM

"But this war, and any that occur until January 2009, will not be conducted by Roger Cohen.
I hope you're not suggesting that any wars after 2009 might be fought by Roger Cohen. Save us.
Also, Roger Cohen's name is too similar to Richard Cohen's. Please fix this problem.

Posted by: SP | Oct 4, 2007 4:00:38 PM

An honest dialogue with the opposition? You mean the opposition that controls the US government, manipulates the intelligence, makes searches without warrants, suspends habeus corpus, and builds secret prisons to hold the 'disappeared'?

Well, good luck with that one.

Remember, we're not 'assuming' bad faith- we're finding it wherever we look.

Enabling the radicals of the the other side is exactly what Cohen is doing. A real liberal could find a thousand other subjects to write about- there is no shortage of problems that could use a little liberal medicine.

Cohen knows exactly what he is doing. That's why you'll frequently find him enabling the radicals of "the other side" but you'll never find him enabling the radicals of the side he claims to be on.

Posted by: serial catowner | Oct 4, 2007 4:11:05 PM

HFS, outside of the general case, taking this specific issue right here, what evidence do you have that any constructive "dialog with the other side" could have been held with the Bush administration with respect to Iraq? And wouldn't you agree that enabling the radicals on that side was a rather dangerous thing to do?

Posted by: Tyro | Oct 4, 2007 4:18:43 PM

If you want to watch a better movie with the same message, rent Batman Begins. "It's not who you are inside, but what you do that defines you."

Posted by: PapaJijo | Oct 4, 2007 4:25:10 PM

Wow! This is a longer and completly coherent version of what Atrios says about every 3 days. Nice work. And it's true -- these guys care nothing for the disaster they've enabled, or the harm they have assisted, it's only their reputations they care about.

Posted by: David in NY | Oct 4, 2007 4:36:36 PM

Good post

In The Last Kiss I thought Tom Wilkinson's performance and his character in general we're far better than the rest of the movie.

Posted by: Eric K | Oct 4, 2007 4:44:50 PM

A great post, and further evidence that wisdom does not correlate with age (compare Ezra Klein and Henry Kissinger).

Posted by: Henderstock | Oct 4, 2007 4:49:05 PM

A great post, and further evidence that wisdom does not correlate with age (compare Ezra Klein and Henry Kissinger).

Posted by: Henderstock | Oct 4, 2007 4:49:14 PM

say maybe that's why little Tommy Friedman who thought democratic "dominos" in the Mid East was a "neat" idea was unhappy (finally after 9 F.U.'s) with the fact that Bush and Rumsfeld were running the war and not General Tommy Friedman. It's always fun however to hear Tom, the diplomat, excoriate the participants in the MidEast when they don't do what Plenipotentiary and Special Envoy, Tommy Friedman, wishes.

Posted by: della Rovere | Oct 4, 2007 4:49:23 PM

Wow, WB Reeves stole my thought from before I clicked on comments:

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

And then tell us some more.

Action item: go down to the WaPo bldg, drag Roger to the street gutter, piss on him while your friends video the action, and post it as a YouTube with the long title "This is what happens to liberal interventionists who mimic the neo-con attack smears and enable a worthless, lying, insane GOP administration bent on global domination."

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Oct 4, 2007 4:54:30 PM

Nice one Ezra.

Posted by: S Brennan | Oct 4, 2007 4:56:30 PM

HFS: If you'll look back, you'll see that the liberal hawks didn't just advocate for an invasion; and they didn't just ignore an effort to empirically and skeptically examine the real world likely outcomes of the invasion (given our actual leaders and actual situation); they also made it a point to insult and demean anyone who opposed the invasion or who noted the likely disastrous results as Saddam's boot lickers, as pro-tyrant, as hating 'America', and in general as morally inferior to themselves.

There's a difference.

But then, it's more difficult to drum a population into a controversial and dangerous war if you ever admit the nobility of your opponents or if you admit that the results may be disastrous and painful.

Better to slur your opponents and concentrate instead on long-winded essays of the glorious world which will arrive after the comic book war fantasy turns out successfully.

Posted by: El_Cid | Oct 4, 2007 5:01:58 PM

Hear fucking hear!

Posted by: Antid Oto | Oct 4, 2007 5:26:03 PM

A great post, and further evidence that wisdom does not correlate with age (compare Ezra Klein and Henry Kissinger).

Posted by: Henderstock | Oct 4, 2007 5:42:10 PM

Things I like:
1) Batman Begins
2) Ezra when he's justifiably angry.

Posted by: SDM | Oct 4, 2007 5:50:09 PM

i found the comparison to sarajevo most interesting, because the lesson i got from "love thy neighbor: a story of war" by peter maas was that a large part of why that genocide occured to the extent it did was because the US and UN did the following:

a) sat on their hands, ignoring well-founded accusations of genocide
b) went in with a woefully inadequate force, leading to Srebrenica

yes, we finally went in, blah blah blah, but because we ignored it, failed to investigate and then take action, we allowed a greater atrocity to happen than would have occured otherwise.

kinda like darfur, i guess, except we havent actually done anything about that one yet either.

Posted by: rigel | Oct 4, 2007 7:12:42 PM

rigel, well, part of it was that the west refused to get involved in stopping the war in Bosnia because stopping it would have resulted in "the wrong outcome"-- namely, the Bosnian Serbs effectively "winning." So we tried a bunch of things, like arming the Bosnian Muslims in the Bihac enclave, encouraging them to go on the offensive and watching them fail. Then setting up the "safe havens" in the hopes that they'd be useful enclaves to link back up with Muslim-held Bosnia later, and so on. There was no focus on "ending the war" because it had to be ended with an outcome that the USA wanted to see. Meanwhile, many were content to wait while more people kept dying until conditions were such that we could take action-- ironically only when those greater atrocities occurred.

it's similar to our refusal to leave Iraq-- we can't just "leave", we can only leave if the circumstances leave cause for a large parade to occur, V-J-day-style. If more people have to die for us to get to that point, well, plenty of people are willing to let that happen.

Posted by: Tyro | Oct 4, 2007 7:31:27 PM

Just to echo everyone else, this is really a beautiful post. I think it gets to the anger so many of us feel but don't know how to express about the utter lack of self-awarness - combined with the utter self-regard - that characterizes so much of contemporary American high profile punditry.

Posted by: bobbo | Oct 4, 2007 7:52:55 PM

I wish I would've began the day (instead of ending it) with a reading of this post.

Posted by: sangfroid826 | Oct 4, 2007 8:03:14 PM

I want to know who called the Motherf7777r (cohen) a liberal?????

Posted by: bohammer | Oct 4, 2007 9:09:34 PM

pwned!

-

Posted by: Hank Essay | Oct 4, 2007 9:20:54 PM

Nice. Reminds me of Tony Kushner from an interview in Mother Jones in 2003, albeit with a different focus.

"Listen, here's the thing about politics: It's not an expression of your moral purity and your ethics and your probity and your fond dreams of some utopian future. Progressive people constantly fail to get this.

. . . .

The system isn't about ideals. The country doesn't elect great leaders. It elects fucked-up people who for reasons of ego want to run the world. Then the citizenry makes them become great. FDR was a plutocrat. In a certain sense he wasn't so different from George W. Bush, and he could have easily been Herbert Hoover, Part II. But he was a smart man, and the working class of America told him that he had to be the person who saved this country. It happened with Lyndon Johnson, too, and it could have happened with Bill Clinton, but we were so relieved after 12 years of Reagan and Bush that we sat back and carped.
... ..
I think what one has to do is to ask oneself, "Do you want to have agency in your own time?" If you really believe that it's your place to leave the world a better place than it was when you arrived, then how do you get the power? In this country, the most powerful country on earth, you get it by voting the right people into power. There are means of getting the power out of the hands of the very rich and the very wicked. It still flabbergasts me that people didn't see this during the last presidential election. We had had 12 years of Reagan and Bush to prepare us for this outcome. It couldn't have been clearer who we were dealing with. George W. Bush was -- is -- a little robot programmed by his daddy to punish Saddam Hussein and get as much money for the petrochemical bandits. It's absolutely jaw-dropping that Democrats saw that and decided instead that they wanted to send a message to their own party that they weren't happy with it for some relatively minor offense. Why didn't we turn out in vast numbers for Gore? Why did we vote for Ralph Nader or not at all? We would absolutely not be in Iraq today if we had a Democratic president in the White House, and I don't need to know any more than that."


http://www.motherjones.com/arts/qa/2003/11/ma_586_01.html

Posted by: no face | Oct 4, 2007 9:21:03 PM

If you want to watch a better movie with the same message, rent Batman Begins. "It's not who you are inside, but what you do that defines you."
Word to that. Tom Wilkinson & Blythe Danner were pretty much the only redeemable parts of The Last Kiss for me, and I sort of thought the whole movie should have just been re-shot to be about them, because they had the acting chops to pull through that mess of a script and make themselves compelling.

Though, if The Last Kiss helped inspire this post, maybe I can give that to it too, because damn, Ezra. This might be the best thing I've ever read on this site.

Posted by: Isabel | Oct 4, 2007 9:22:33 PM

After reading this I now feel like punching someone. Richard Cohen seems like a good choice.

Posted by: Roberto | Oct 4, 2007 9:31:04 PM


Thank you, Ezra. Thanks for putting these thoughts to words so elegantly.

Posted by: Jmay | Oct 4, 2007 9:35:27 PM

I have trouble with the notion that we shouldn't ever express our personal beliefs about the way policy should be conducted because something we say might be twisted and taken out of context

I've never seen Ezra or any other non-Republicans take this position. However, it is clear that we all, especially those who have an audience and/or influence, must accept our share of responsibility for the consequences of what we advocate. Naturally, it's always advisable to attempt to communicate our thoughts clearly enough that the chances of them being twisted are minimized, although obviously there's only so much care one can take.

Also, what El Cid said.

Posted by: latts | Oct 4, 2007 9:45:24 PM

Much too much agreement in this thread. Where's Sanpete?

Posted by: Sam L. | Oct 4, 2007 9:48:50 PM

be fair now, he's also a douchebag.

Posted by: onceler | Oct 4, 2007 10:05:55 PM

Day by day, it becomes more and more obvious to a larger number of Americans that General Petraeus has no strategy in Iraq, other than to deflect criticism from his Commander-in Chief's catastrophic failure as a Statesman and a Wartime leader. If this is a liberal hawk's cojones, I'm afraid they're all about to pop.

Posted by: branchalvinian | Oct 4, 2007 10:16:11 PM

The nobility of his motives are irrelevant. Perhaps he just can't grasp that. The war is a disaster. From conception, it was a disaster. Cohen can argue all he wants about how wonderful everything was supposed to be if it had worked, but the thing is, IT DIDN'T.

Everything that has spawned from this poorly thought out pipe dream can be laid at his feet as well as any of the other war boosters. In the wake of 9/11, they took their eye off the ball (Bin Laden) and instead focused on a random shiny object -- in this case, Iraq -- and got us embroiled in the disaster that even Bush Sr. predicted.

And it isn't just that they blundered so badly. It's that the blunder was so needless, so off-topic. We can't help but try to psychoanalyze the real motives of the people that spawned this because appeals to noble motives can't explain it away.

Posted by: Dumbo | Oct 4, 2007 10:17:57 PM

The march back towards the firm ground of pragmatism will be long and difficult, and lead through many a slough of sticky BS.

Posted by: Josh Koenig | Oct 4, 2007 10:42:40 PM

Absolutely terrific post: I think Cohen just took a hard right hook and he's not going to be able to last the 10 count.

Posted by: Pioneer10 | Oct 4, 2007 10:45:58 PM

Can we still say pwned? Are the kids still saying that? Well, even if they're not...Ezra, you just pwned the hell out of Cohen (and others of his ilk). Kudos on a truly excellent post.

Posted by: Mike P | Oct 4, 2007 10:50:59 PM

As Chotiner would say: these folks believe the twisted logic that the ends don't matter as long as the means are justified. I.e. who cares about where Iraq ends up and at what US cost since Saddam was a bad guy

Posted by: Pioneer10 | Oct 4, 2007 10:51:30 PM

Well said Ezra!

Posted by: DanF | Oct 4, 2007 10:53:28 PM

Ezra, I have no knowledge of the last movie you cite and frankly, I think this post really gets going once you move past the film references. This might be one the best posts I've read from in a very long time. And while, as someone seemingly a bit ungraciously pointed out, derivative, it's still true, well said and until things change, can't be said too much.

Well done sir. More passion like this will surely elicit more bravos.

Posted by: russell | Oct 4, 2007 10:54:09 PM

But, but, but, if you have been right about everything & I have been wrong about everything for 5 years, I still get to call you an anti-Semite--right?

Posted by: roger "WATB" cohen | Oct 4, 2007 10:59:07 PM

"The neocon taste for American empire is not the liberal hawk’s belief in the bond between American power and freedom’s progress."

Yes it is. But unlike the liberal hawks, the neocons understand exactly what the game is, and what the stakes are.

Posted by: Peter Principle | Oct 4, 2007 11:01:30 PM

Had Cohen any honor or sense of shame he would have slit his wrists years ago.

Posted by: Eli Rabett | Oct 4, 2007 11:17:16 PM

People who loose wars ordinarily should be more circumspect in their self-justification than this Cohen guy seems to be.

The least acknowledgment of reality from the guy would be welcome, but is not forthcoming--not even "mistakes were made"--not even "the situation has developed not necessarily to our advantage" . . .

Posted by: rea | Oct 4, 2007 11:31:21 PM

I reject the entire concept of "liberal hawk", at least as relates to the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

This is a war of agression, pure and simple. We (the U.S.) hanged people for that after WWII.

Posted by: grassroot | Oct 4, 2007 11:37:33 PM

word

Posted by: arbitropia | Oct 4, 2007 11:49:52 PM

Brave Sir Ezra...liberal chickenhawk. Doesn't anyone else think Atrios' link might have been sarcasm?

Posted by: evilchemistry | Oct 5, 2007 12:06:16 AM

I came here from Atrios too, and don't even try it, evilchemistry, it doesn't work in lesser hands. Ezra may have erred in the past, I have no idea, but this post is exceptional.
.

Posted by: MikeB | Oct 5, 2007 12:30:49 AM

Brilliant post. Don't stop, hit all those baxxxxxs who are so grossly wrong about America's interest while caring their own ideological purity.

Posted by: Umesh Patil | Oct 5, 2007 12:50:41 AM

I have no idea

sounds familiar... Do you review books or movies without reading or viewing them?

Ezra Klein - Tomorrow's media sycophancy today!

The old timer's used to say "day late, dollar short" and "I'm not like them, just ask me"...but YMMV

jeebus

Posted by: evilchemistry | Oct 5, 2007 1:37:16 AM

The "liberal hawks" started out as naive fools. Now they are just self-serving shitbags pathetically trying to deflect the criticism they so richly deserve. Cohen's attempt to shield himself by making charges of antisemitism is totally despicable and morally bankrupt. The man is scum personified.

Posted by: Richard | Oct 5, 2007 1:43:26 AM

Yes, this is indeed a good post. Of course, we need not get enraged that reactionaries have their toadies who pretend not to be reactionaries in order to a) confuse people and b) deflect criticism.

Because by getting enraged, we are having our criticism deflected. As Ezra says, the big issue is not fatuous right-wing babblers pretending not to be right-wing. It is right-wingers in government, who are unashamedly right-wing.

Note Cohen, piss on him, and pass by.

Posted by: MFB | Oct 5, 2007 4:07:30 AM

Has anybody else seen The Last Kiss? Is it worth seeing? Following the link, I see that Harold Ramis played "Professor Bowler", which I initially read as "Professional Bowler". Is this movie anything like Kingpin?

As for the so-called "liberal hawks", it's sad that they don't recognize that their place in the debate is solely as shills for the neocons. At some point they have to define their "hawk" position on grounds a bit more adult than "anti-Iraq war doves would never fight any war". As you say, Ezra, these people are not engaged in debate, they are engaged in smearing. So long as they behave like tools of a propaganda movement, we will treat them like the tools that they are.

Posted by: Whispers | Oct 5, 2007 5:01:42 AM

Perhaps Mr. Cohen will listen to a fellow liberal hawk, Max Weber.
Your mission, Mr. Cohen, if you accept it:
Read about Verantwortungsethik and Gesinnungsethik. Tell us, in your own words, about the dangers of Gesinnungsethik in the context of foreign policy.

Posted by: IM | Oct 5, 2007 5:59:06 AM

He is not a neoconservative. He is a narcissist.

Narcissist, maybe, but he's still a neoconservative and a total Dick. I wouldn't give these people the honor of calling them liberal. What makes him liberal? His social views? What are they? Then we could really decide what kind of wierd creature could frame himself as liberal and then kiss the jackboots of Bushco. He's a neocon, no matter his social views. That "Liberal" handle is just good cover for the bloodthirsty media and the Rightwing. It gives them more smoke and mirrors for their agendas.

Posted by: Dean | Oct 5, 2007 7:43:14 AM

kinda like darfur, i guess, except we havent actually done anything about that one yet either.
posted by: rigel

Darfur has no white people, no oil and it's in Africa. There you have it, BA DA BOOM!

Posted by: Dean | Oct 5, 2007 7:47:52 AM

This is a memorable post, worthy of inclusion in a blogger's hall of fame! I agree that Cohen's smear of more than 70% of this nation is especially outrageous. His syllogism boils down to: Anti-warmonger = Anti-neocon/zionist = anti-zionist = anti-semite.

Posted by: Ulysses | Oct 5, 2007 8:44:22 AM

Can you submit that to the NY Times? It's such a great post and maybe if the NY Times prints your letter you'll be reach more than the choir.

Posted by: Christina | Oct 5, 2007 10:25:30 AM

Ezra,

A very good post and I see your point, which on one level contradicts the one I was trying to make in my own post.

You write that there is no *functional* difference between a neocon and a liberal hawk as long as Bush is president. I certainly agree.

However, I think the distinction is still important to draw because there are profound differences, both intellectually and psychologically, between neocons and liberal hawks. Understanding that they are different, and acknowledging those differences makes it easier to confront each in an effective way.

As Norman Podhoretz's essay "My Negro Problem, And Ours" illustrates so painfully, neoconservatism is rooted in a deep-seated psychological terror and rage that is then projected out into the world.

Liberal hawks, otoh, don't seem to have that overwhelming sense of dread and rage. They may be neurotic, even severely so, but they're not damaged in the way that NoPod, Perle, and Wolfowitz, for example, are. They are simply muddled thinkers. One example is that they allow themselves to become the unwitting tools of the neocons.

Recognizing these differences enables us to fashion responses that will be more effective in dealing with both. Neocons deserve ridicule, contempt, and dismissal. Liberal hawks require intensive, focused, and frankly endless disputation. In short, neocons are joke. Liberal hawks are royal pains in the ass.

Another problem with mixing the two is that it make it easier for neocons to masquerade as liberal hawks and advance their power.

Not that you're wrong. Just that there is more to this than meets the eye.

Posted by: tristero | Oct 5, 2007 11:07:08 AM

If you believe saying anything except the party line is bad, because you are afraid that a moderate hawkish or interventionist view might possibly be an enabler of radicals on the other side, well, you are basically kissing goodbye any hope of ever having an honest dialogue with the opposition.

Um, excuse me but the last time I looked--the last couple of hundred times in fact--"moderate hawkish/interventionist" WAS the effing "party line." And the last couple of thousand times I looked, the Cohens and Friedmans and Liebermans of the world were having plenty of access to the big megaphones, as opposed to a marked absence of representation of the other view anywhere except out here in the blog wilderness. Why is it always the ones who would like to be a part of the conversation and help turn it INTO a dialogue who are being told to shut up and listen?

Cohen's piece isn't in the least bit dialogical. He doesn't cite any actual views on the other side or present any of our actual arguments. He just puts up a caricature "leftist" perspective and throws mudpies at it. Show me any evidence HE's interested in genuine dialogue with anyone. He represents a point of view that has been consistently, grossly overrepresented in the media and impervious to any input from the so-called "left." I'd say the burden is all on his side. And it's obvious he's not interested.

Posted by: DrBB | Oct 5, 2007 11:32:43 AM

In the late 1930's Charles Lindbergh, the Brad Pitt/Dale Earnhardt of the time, said we should ally with Germany after seeing the might of the German luftwaffe.

At the same time Joe Kennedy (JFK's dad) as Ambassador to England, said the same thing.

After 12/7/41 they were stone cold nobodies.

There was a time when "staking your reputation" on a political decision meant if you were wrong you would resign.

That's the difference between Ken Burn's 'The War' and the Real War, the Now War, the Orwellian Never Ending War, the Neocon War.

There is no meritocracy or even common sense in the pundit class that controls our politics today.

Posted by: feckless | Oct 5, 2007 11:47:42 AM

Joe Kennedy was still influential enough to launch his son to the presidency, so even in the good old times things were more complicated.

Posted by: IM | Oct 5, 2007 12:26:27 PM

wow.

Posted by: jethro | Oct 5, 2007 1:15:56 PM

I think it's important to remember, and say out loud from time to time, that Richard Cohen, in additional to being venal, ill-informed, cowardly and so on, is just not very bright.

Sometimes, especially with older white men, it's hard to accept the fact that people of limited abilities may have, by dint of accident or chance, family connection or even dogged persistence, come into a position of prominence. Being a columnist for the Washington Post won't make a dumb man smart.

Posted by: Jim Pharo | Oct 5, 2007 1:44:25 PM

Jim Ph,

This would be "Roger" Cohen of the New York Times -- the other white meat.

Posted by: Klein's Tiny Left Nut | Oct 5, 2007 3:41:39 PM

ROGER

The man's name is ROGER COHEN. He opines and blogs at the International Herald Tribune

He is NOT Richard Cohen of the Washington Post.

Posted by: EthanS | Oct 5, 2007 3:55:08 PM

Ditto to all of this. And especially to whoever upthread said to write the 'Times'. There are plenty of reasonable, intelligent, Democrats (some of whom I'm related to) who have never read a blog in their life, but read the 'Times' and WaPo and still take Cohen, Friedman et al seriously. These guys will not be pwned until the reading public has as much scorn for them as our boy Ezra.

Posted by: John I | Oct 5, 2007 4:16:42 PM

I haven't seen The Last Kiss, but Tom Wilkinson is reliably the best thing about most productions he's in.

Posted by: Iain Coleman | Oct 5, 2007 6:59:36 PM

That was beautiful, Ezra.

Posted by: hamletta | Oct 5, 2007 9:59:56 PM

well, yeah, but Richard Cohen is generally dumb as a box of rocks, so he shares a few traits with Roger.

Posted by: moe99 | Oct 5, 2007 11:24:00 PM

I'd just like to point out that it is possible to support the military removal of Saddam and the Baathists without being a drooling Bushie.

The tendency of some anti-invasionists to paint all hawks with a too-broad brush is no more accurate, nor fair, than the tendency of the pro-invasionist cons to paint all anti-interventionists as America-hating or limp-wristed terror-lovers.

I supported the invasion. I supported the removal of Saddam and the destruction of the Baath regime. These were some nasty, nasty people and because America was already so tangled up in Iraq, due to our feeding resources to Saddam during the Cold War, and because of our failure to remove him during the first Gulf War, I think we owed it to Iraqis to finally go get the job done.

Does this mean I think everything has gone perfectly?

Hell no. Much of what has gone wrong has gone wrong precisely because we failed to remove Saddam in 1991, when we had for more manpower and a better political footing from which to project it. Rumsfeld didn't factor in how exhausted the Army and Marines would be. Bush and Rove used poor and weak logic in "selling" the invasion to the public. And of course, the Iraqis themselves have much to answer for. Those aren't Americans out there car-bombing markets filled with women and children.

But I digress. The so-called 'liberal hawk' stance deserves defending. Some people might not think so, but that doesn't automatically make all liberal hawks the moral or ethical equivalent of the seedier portion of the NeoCon populace.

Being a liberal hawk means believing that the U.S. armed forces must remain as a powerful interventionalist force in matters of dire humanitarian crisis. If we fault the cons for anything, maybe we should fault them for not prioritizing in the Middle East? (knock, knock, Darfur...)

If America turns its back on military interventionalism, as seems to be the want of many right now, the world will be a far less stable place for it.

Maybe lots of people could live with the U.S. being an isolationist.

But how do we explain an isolationist policy to the memories of those who fought in WWI or WWII? Korea?

These are questions that go far beyond Bush. America must still define itself in a post-Soviet world. Especially with the Chinese rising as the next (probable) superpower. What is our "job", as a nation, anyway? Do we just keep all the troops home and never again bother with a foreign military adventure?

If so, I think we will have all but handed "lone superpower" status to the Chinese. Would this be desireable?

I'm not saying I have all the answers. I am asking questions as a self-identified LibHawk who resents being tarred and feathered for Bush's mistakes and misdeeds.

Posted by: CommunityRadioVet | Oct 7, 2007 1:42:26 AM

Well said, Ezra.

Posted by: jmack | Oct 8, 2007 8:21:09 AM

Thanks Ezra for reminding me how exactly "W" managed to get re-elected in '04 -- by turning off all who didn't worship at your aggrandized ego and were tainted by the slightest whiff of intellectual impurity.

I don't like Cohen and rarely read him. But at least he makes his arguments; you throw spitballs.

Posted by: Jamesaust | Oct 13, 2007 12:48:41 PM

Yeah right, hee's the HAWK Al Gore telling us all we need to be really tough on bad old Saddam Hussein and that Bush was too nice to Saddam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVUO7voM-ns

Think Nodel knew Gore was the Father of the GET SADDAM NEO-CONS!!

Posted by: Patton | Oct 14, 2007 7:03:54 AM

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