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August 06, 2007
Right to the Center
Matt Miller writes:
Consider John Edwards, who the press and Republicans have cast as the heartthrob of the resurgent “left”. The centrepiece of Mr Edwards’ agenda is a call for universal health coverage. It sounds radical to American ears, perhaps. But Margaret Thatcher would have been chased from office in the UK if she had proposed a health plan as radically conservative as Mr Edwards’ – under which private doctors would supply the medicine, and years would still pass with millions of Americans uncovered.
Mr Edwards wants to lift the minimum wage substantially, and to boost wage subsidies for low-income work besides. But the outer limits of Mr Edwards’ ambition would leave low income work less generously compensated than the minimum wage and subsidy blend enacted by Britain’s New Labourites Tony Blair and Gordon Brown – arrangements Conservative party leader David Cameron says suit him just fine.
On taxes, Mr Edwards wants to return marginal rates for high earners from 35 per cent to the 39.6 per cent level that existed under Bill Clinton – rates slightly lower than those in force after Mrs Thatcher got through cutting them. Mr Edwards jawbones against outsized CEO pay that is divorced from performance – a concern that arch-capitalist Warren Buffet trumpets at every opportunity. Mr Edwards’ plans for college aid would still leave American graduates far deeper in debt than anything conservative parties across Europe would tolerate.
Mr Edwards and others question the received wisdom that “free trade is good no matter how many people get hurt”, but here again, this is not as “leftist” as some seem to think. We know this from the recent American debate on immigration, where not a single market-loving economist made the case for unfettered immigration of unskilled workers. Why not? Because of the social havoc it would cause. [...]
I could go on, but you get the point. The fact that a Thatcher-Cameron-Buffet agenda can be hyped as “populist” says more about propaganda success and media norms than anything else. Over three decades, America’s conservative movement has so deftly shifted the boundaries of debate to the right that even modest adjustments to the market system can be cast as the second coming of Marx without anyone blushing.
America's political consensus is almost absurdly to the right. But because people still need to run to the left of each other, the rhetoric on offer frequently sounds like the rhetoric of the left, even as its actual prescriptions are decidedly within the mainstream of our fairly conservative consensus on economics. And vice versa in other countries, where rhetoric of the right can refer to almost comically leftist policies. where the center is much further left -- and in other countries, the precise opposite happens.
The French election was an excellent example. The rhetoric there was much the same as the rhetoric here, but it was actually referring to a consensus far to the left of ours, and so even the right wing radical Sarkozy was offering nothing but a couple market-friendly tweaks across the edges of France's expansive public sector. He's further to the Left than anyone running in America. Here, John Edwards is speaking boldly for the left, but doing little more than shoring up some holes of inefficiency and insecurity within our market-heavy approach. His support for the 40-hour, rather than 35-hour, workweek puts him considerably to Sarkozy's right.
Part of the lesson here, incidentally, is that large scale social reforms are incredibly hard to rollback. No American politician would publicly question the existence of Medicare, though many on the right viciously opposed its creation. Same goes for Social Security, which Bush, in 2000, promised to leave untouched, and which, in 2005, gave him his first major defeat when he attempted to privatize it.
One day, when we have a universal health care system, even hardline conservatives will promise to strengthen and protect it, and they will disavow their forefathers who battled so mightily against its passage. The fight for the passage of major social programs is infinitely harder than the battles for their perpetuation.
August 6, 2007 | Permalink
Comments
Miller doesn't seem to appreciate how entrenched the corporate and wealthy interests are in American politics. What Edwards is proposing is bold given our interest politics dynamic. It is also the only agenda that is attempting to move the consensus in an appreciably left leaning direction.
Posted by: AJ | Aug 6, 2007 12:11:53 PM
Here, John Edwards is speaking boldly for the left.
No. He is speaking boldly on behalf of American progressivism. If he were speaking boldly on behalf of the Left, he would be talking more about capital.
Posted by: john | Aug 6, 2007 12:44:03 PM
I am a progressive, not a lefist. There is no left in America. That we pretend there is- is itself a GOP redscare framing of the discussion. We buy into their narrative even when we think we are fighting against it. I see any number of liberals do that on this blog.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 6, 2007 3:06:58 PM
The fact that a Thatcher-Cameron-Buffet agenda can be hyped as “populist” says more about propaganda success and media norms than anything else. Over three decades, America’s conservative movement has so deftly shifted the boundaries of debate to the right that even modest adjustments to the market system can be cast as the second coming of Marx without anyone blushing.
The set-up was good, but his conclusion is wrong. US conservatives now are far more left than they were 40 years ago, on the whole. The US has long been more conservative than Europe, but not because the Right has moved the discourse. Socialism never took hold here in the way it did in Europe, and that still matters.
It's all relative. In the US, Democrats are Left, Republicans Right.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 3:18:11 PM
Fourty years ago US conservatism premier politician was Barry Goldwater. It's premier pundit was William F. Buckley. Neither of these two are at all representative of the mainstream of contemporary US conservatism. We're suppose to believe that this is because US conservatism has moved to their left?
In 1968 conservatives elected noted red hunter Richard M. Nixon to the US Presidency. By today's conservative's standards he would be rated a far left Liberal.
Some folks are impervious to such realities.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 6, 2007 3:40:31 PM
Agree with WB. The conservatives who run the GOP today are reactionary. Goldwaters daughter or maybe it was granddaughter did this documentary recently, and in an interview, as I remember she said that he would not recognize the GOP today as being his party. There is some credence to that. I disagreed with him on politics, but he was principled, and when it came to gay rights he was an early on supporter even as the Clintons moved further supposed right on the issue.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 6, 2007 3:43:10 PM
How many conservatives now are members of the John Birch Society? Used to be a sizable share, with many others sympathetic. How many are opposed to racial integration, including "mixed marriage"? How many are opposed to women working? How many think adultery and gay sex should be illegal? How many think the Vietnam War was a good idea? How many oppose Medicare and universal health care? Those were mainstream conservative views--and well represented among Democrats too. Goldwater's views on pot and gays were once on the very fringe of the his party, but are now far more common there, despite the swing to the Right over the last 15 years (not 40) in terms of office holders. Don't look only at aberrations like Nixon (what was he really?) and Bush II, who were never very representative. Look at the common views among conservatives.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 4:47:12 PM
We are- and you confuse polite racism with not being racist by the way. And I can apply that to any number of things you mention. Gays for example- hate the sin, not the sinner. Someone had an article up - NyTimes maybe- about brown (mexicans) being the new black. etc
Posted by: akaison | Aug 6, 2007 5:04:41 PM
Sanpete,
The republicans you are referring to have changed their self identification in the last 10 years from Republican to Independent. Some have even gone all the way and registered as Democrats and are active in Democratic Party politics as 'fromer Republicans'
How do you explain the disconnect between the positions taken up in the Weekly Standard, the Washington Times, the National Review, and the FOX News programs, with the more 'leftish' views of todays conservatives? Why the disconnect. I think its because the 27%ers are in charge and the leadership comes out of that segment of the party.
Posted by: Northern Observer | Aug 6, 2007 5:11:49 PM
Akaison, I'm talking about outright racism and pro-segregationist views, and you're talking about polite racism? And you say I'm confused? Hate the sin not the sinner isn't an answer to actually favoring gay civil rights in far greater numbers than 40 years ago.
NO, some have moved over, but there are far more than before (which was a very small number 40 years ago) who stay in the party. I agree that a very conservative group has disproportionate power on the Right now, but that's part of my point, that they aren't quite representative. And even they are well left of their precursors on the issues I mentioned, among others.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 5:29:31 PM
One has to ask what Sanpete's definition of conservative is. It's certainly not the one used by the recognized mouthpieces of contemporary conservatism.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 6, 2007 5:39:05 PM
I'm speaking of self-identified conservatives. You have some better idea?
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 5:54:42 PM
I'm speaking of self-identified conservatives. You have some better idea?
I didn't realize you had polled all "self-identified conservatives", or even a simple majority of them, which is the only basis that would provide your generalizations with credibility.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 6, 2007 6:00:45 PM
WBR, would you like to challenge any particular point, or are you just yipping some more? I assume you know that there have long been opinion polls, but one need not consult them on points that are as plain as can be just from living in this country as long as we both have.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 6:11:49 PM
Sanpete, to be blunt, if you told me the sky was blue, I'd run outside and check and not because I thought you were insincere.
I'm sure I don't have to explain to you that you are responsible for supporting your own arguments and that you don't get a pass because of accidents of geography.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 6, 2007 6:18:59 PM
You yip and yip and yip and have no point at all. But you keep at it just like you did. Again, feel free to actually take issue with some specific point so we can all see just how groundless your constant yipping is. What needs more support? That there used to be far more conservatives who were John Birchers, who supported segregation, what? I'll bet you do need to go check to see what color the sky is.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 6:46:28 PM
"How many think adultery and gay sex should be illegal?"
Have you heard of the Texas GOP?
"How many think the Vietnam War was a good idea?"
A disturbing number of right-wingers think Vietnam was a fine idea. This has been a hot topic for right-wing revisionists
"How many oppose Medicare... "
They oppose Medicare by stealth. Stocking the administrative henhouse with foxes and trying to privatize it as much as they can get away with.
"...and universal health care?"
As our friend J@s*n R (whisper his name), showed us, there is a cottage industry for opposing universal health care. The GOP will be using his exact same arguments when the legislative fight for UHC begins. At most they will rhetorically say they 'favor' UHC, but in reality they won't do shit about it.
Posted by: Waingro | Aug 6, 2007 8:44:27 PM
Waingro, compare the numbers now to what they were 40 years ago. There has been a big shift to the left on all these issues among conservatives. Even in Texas.
(JasonR is a libertarian; not sure he's conservative overall. Looks like he gave up on us.)
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 6, 2007 10:27:36 PM
we are discussing the conservative leadership and where they draw their power.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 12:29:07 AM
an apathetic electorate is more liberal, but being apathetic means that the power of the concentrated small percentage of crazy wingnut conservatives is exaggerated. hence how we get elections that we do in the US>
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 12:30:08 AM
i had assumed- apparently in correctly- that this was understood
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 12:30:34 AM
That there used to be far more conservatives who were John Birchers, who supported segregation,
Your assertion, even if true, would prove nothing except that a particular organization had declined.
One that wasn't particularly partisan I might add. The most widely Known politician who was a member of the JBS was Rep. Larry MacDonald of Georgia who served during the Reagan Administration. He ran as a Democrat. If he hadn't died in 1983 chances are he'd still be representing the 7th district. That's the district that launched Newt Gingrich and repeatedly returned him to office. The same folks who voted for McDonald voted for Gingrich.
So when you tout the decline of the JBS, I'm not particularly impressed. Here, ideas that animated the JBS haven't gone away, they've just found new modes of expression through the Georgia GOP.
Besides the JBS, even during its hey day, was never considered to be the bellweather of US conservatism.
As for using the open espousal of segregation as a marker, Goldwater era conservatives didn't, as a rule, defend segregation per se, they opposed Federal action to end it. They claimed to be defending federalism against the encroachments of the central government. So "conservatives"saying that they don't support segregation isn't anything new either.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 1:35:14 AM
And I suspect that as tolerance for either extreme of the political spectrum falls, the center inches right Just a guess
Posted by: RW | Aug 7, 2007 1:40:34 AM
And I suspect that as tolerance for either extreme of the political spectrum falls, the center inches right Just a guess
That's an interesting guess. Do you believe this is only true in the present, or do you think the US's political trajectory has been rightward throughout its history?
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 2:04:51 AM
I guess I was thinking of it as limited to post-war democracies, if only because left and right start to break down further back.
I dont know that there has been a rightward teleology -- I just think of periods where there was more diversity of political opinion than that currently represented by the two parties, and think the center tended to be center left. The most reactionary era in American politics before 2001-2004 was McArthy, and it was about nothing if not squelching everything to the left of mainstream liberalism. Kennedy and Johnson eras, by contrast, were characterized by political insurgencies on both sides, like Wallace and Goldwater on the right and King and Malcolm X and SDS on the left.
Possible explanatory hypotheses in the American context:
1. Tolerance for political diversity is simply more likely to be a value of the center left than the center right
2. The dynamic between the center left and the left is different than the dynamic between the center right and the right. Faced with an insurgent left, liberals will move right to avoid the association with them, whereas conseratives will move right to try to capture an insurgent right.
Posted by: RW | Aug 7, 2007 2:23:12 AM
Part of the lesson here, incidentally, is that large scale social reforms are incredibly hard to rollback. No American politician would publicly question the existence of Medicare, though many on the right viciously opposed its creation. Same goes for Social Security, which Bush, in 2000, promised to leave untouched, and which, in 2005, gave him his first major defeat when he attempted to privatize it.
I agree with this. Which makes it rather puzzling to hear you claim that the political consensus is to the right.
Posted by: David Nieporent | Aug 7, 2007 4:11:00 AM
I don't know that large scale social reforms are hard to roll back - I think the point is that large scale government programs are hard to roll back, which is why Democrats have had as hard a time making a dent in defense spending as Republicans have with Medicare and Social Security. I think one could point out that integration - which seemed to making headway in my childhood of the late sixties and early seventies - has in fact rolled back considerably, because the energy around social change has an ebb and flow that's hard to sustain over the long term (and which, I think, might explain that sense of "greater conservatism" akaison and Sanpete and WB are arguing over, and I tend to agree, the country is more conservative now). Government programs, by contrast, have a built in inertia that comes from opening up a gravy train no one really wants to stop once it starts (farm subsidies, anyone?). Such inertia, though, also tends to argue against major changes in healthcare - yes, if one day we wound up with single payer, Republicans would have a hard time rolling it back; but you can't really test that until we get there, and it's the getting there that seems hard to unlikely at this point. And, while I agree that there's a lot of conservatism around, and less of the "traditional left" which I was raised on, I still believe it will come back and will find a new round of appeal - it's one of the reasons why, while I don't love the polls, I tend to agree that younger people do seem more liberal these days, and in the long run, that probably points to a shift back to the left. Which, though akaison will probably never believe me, I happen to think would be a good thing. :)
Posted by: weboy | Aug 7, 2007 9:11:01 AM
the problem with healthcare isn't social change. it's a powerful class of lobbist that have bought the left and right a like in this country. they could care less what the general population thinks.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 9:38:41 AM
Reminds me of a illustration I heard a poli-sci prof give once. He compared policy making to carrying an old mattress up a winding staircase. It might be hard getting it upstairs but it was even harder to get it back down.
Of course this kind of thinking elevates the role of bureaucratic action and wonkery above the direct political role of the citizenry. It also skips over the reality that particular policies need not be revoked in order that they be eviscerated. The shameful judicial refashioning of the reconstruction era civil rights amendment to serve rising corporate power being an example of such.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 9:47:39 AM
I think there is an element of social change in really changing the way we think about and deliver healthcare in this country - absent some changes in understanding about, say, the role of doctors, it'll be hard to expect changes in payment approaches to make a difference. That said, I agree that the various vested interests of different groups - healthcare providers, insurers and the rest - is what's really holding back substantial change. I don't think that can be addressed though, without making some or all of these groups into partners, rather than adversaries.
Posted by: weboy | Aug 7, 2007 10:13:02 AM
the social change has occured. again, read the polls and tell me that it hasn't. not everything is a matter of whether something is wanted by popular will. if it were there would never be dictatorship. an extreme meant to illustrate a point about the limits of arguing "things will change when social movements want them to change." it ignores that power can be concentrated for the purposes of an issue in the hands of a few or sometimes one. and we don't need to make them anything- they are what they are. again to cite history and facts- hillarycare 1993, and they have already drafted their version of universal healthcare which essentially is in their interest that does little to change the systemic problems.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 10:22:37 AM
And WB is exactly right. My law professor from Germany said the same thing. He said the power of the Nazis was not simply in their attrocities but in how they used existing law in such a distorted way that it lost any relationship to what it was originally intended. This anaology isn't to compare them to Nazis - its to explain that limits of how people understand how these things work. For that matter, it can work in reverse- the NAACP Legal Defense fund understood to take out Jim Crow they had to wage a decades long tearing down of what equality under the law meant. Alito's response on the coal industry during the confirmation hearings comes to mind as to how ideas can be manipulated within seemingly clear cut language. He basically argued that despite the fact someone was working in a coal mine they were not part of the coal industry for the purposes of protection under statute. I am arguing different strands of a greater argument here- that we need to realize how things get done can happen in multiple ways. Simple refrains like- its social or its legal misses the point that its a lot of factors.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 10:27:48 AM
Those on the Right are convinced the nation has drifted left over the last 50 years (maybe a better time frame than 40 years because the 60s were so turbulent), while those on the Left are convinced it has drifted right. The extremes on both sides have been drawn in towards the center, feeding that perception. Anyone considering race, gender and sexuality issues, all huge aspects of our culture, ought to be able to see the very plain shift leftward--there really can't be any doubt about this, despite the quibbling. In which areas have we moved to the right? Unions are weaker, and people don't care, so there's that. Some taxes are currently at lower levels, but most aren't, and the taxes are on their way back up. Hardly the kind of huge change seen in the social issues. What else? How specifically have we drifted right, and how does it compare to how we have drifted left?
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 11:18:23 AM
Sanpete is shifting the terms of the discussion. His original assertion was that Conservatives had moved left. Now he behaves as if his contention were something else entirely, ie, that the country as a whole has moved left.
That's a worthwhile topic but one that would require re-starting the conversation from scratch.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 11:55:07 AM
Both points go to the same claim, that the Right has shifted things to the right. That may be true in the short term, but over the long term it's plainly false. Both the Right and the country have moved decidedly left over the last two generations.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 12:01:40 PM
Both points go to the same claim, that the Right has shifted things to the right.
No. Whether or not the country as whole has moved to the left has no necessary connection whatever with the political trajectory of Conservatism. That trajectory was the subject of your initial assertion. If you want to expand the subject, we will have to start over.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 12:08:33 PM
I didn't say one implies the other; I said both ideas are related to the original claim made in Ezra's post. And I don't share your concern about starting over, both because what I've said is relevant to the issue and because you can still talk about whatever you want. If you want to show in terms of particulars how the Right has moved rightward or not moved lefteward, go ahead. What you've said so far on that is very weak. You seem to seriously doubt that the Right has moved left on the issues I've mentioned.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 12:18:51 PM
and as I said moving their real feelings into the closet in the form of polite racism isn't a sign that they aren't racist. that's just one example of why your thoughts on this is flawed. Much of what passes for immigration discussion on the right, for example, is actually racism. fear of a brown nation.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 12:32:37 PM
You seem to seriously doubt that the Right has moved left on the issues I've mentioned.
More precisely, I don't think you and I mean the same things, despite using the same words.
This isn't an invitation to another tedious exchange over what is real and what is not.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 12:35:17 PM
Akaison, do you really think people in general or conservatives in particular are just as racist as two generations ago, only now it's in the closet? That is flat wrong. As you should know. That racism persists isn't any argument against what I've said.
WBR, you're being quibbly and evasive. If you have a substantive point, go ahead and make it.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 12:56:57 PM
actually let me clarify my pointl. changing the face of who they discriminate against and the particular details doesn't change the nature of the underlying reasoning behind the behavior. In his book, One More River to Cross, Keith Boykin, a black gay activists, discusses the silliness of how people try to say discrimination against gays isn't the same as discrimination against blacks because, of course, the attribute or characteristic of being gay isn't the same as race. But, that's hardly the point. To show discrimination one need not show that the ways that one does it will remain constant. The point I am making is that the face of the discrimination changes, but the persistent element in the right through the generations is that there is someone or group they are trying to villify. Show me a generation in America where this ever present fact isn't true then let's talk on a deeper level about how the right has changed. What you are referring to , I suspect, is what WB is getting at. That progress outside of the basic psychology has changed so that rather than overt racism with blacks for example on the right things have "improved" to polite racism or acceptance because they have moved on in some cases to use that same problematic psychology against a new group such as the gays, and when they run out the brown people from across the border, and etc and so forth. Has thid dynamic changed its outer face? Sure. does that change the fundmanetal issue? I don't see how i does.
Posted by: akaison | Aug 7, 2007 1:18:11 PM
I've made several substantive points Sanpete but as is your wont, you ignore them and try to change the subject.
Posted by: WB Reeves | Aug 7, 2007 1:25:35 PM
Akaison, while gay rights are lagging racial rights on both the Right and the Left, both the country as a whole and the Right have moved far to the left in regard to gay rights, and prejudice against gays. I agree that a similar dynamic still exists (and not only on the Right), but the particular nature of it has shifted a great deal, in ways that really matter.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 1:29:15 PM
WBR, I obviously haven't ignored your points or changed the subject. I've pointed out that your substantive points are weak and don't overturn what I've said (even if what you say is true). And you've been evasive about whether you really believe anything that would counter what I've said.
Posted by: Sanpete | Aug 7, 2007 1:36:30 PM
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托盘
钢托盘
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铁托盘
塑料托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
柱式托盘
波纹板托盘
镀锌托盘
南京托盘
上海托盘
北京托盘
广州托盘
Posted by: judy | Oct 11, 2007 8:05:44 AM



