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May 04, 2007

Under 21 Softcore Porn!

That should jack up the Google hits. And this should disappoint those who follow the links! Garance has a very provocative op-ed on Girls Gone Wild in today's Wall Street Journal. In it, she argues that:

"Mr. Francis's cameras have constructed a huge business out of recording the semi-nudity of "girls" who are not in "the business" at all: naïve girls, canny girls, drunken girls, pretty girls and not-so-pretty girls--regular girls, if one may put it that way. Above all, young girls. Mr. Francis has made it socially acceptable for a freshman at, say, Ohio State--living in a dorm room in Columbus like thousands of freshmen before her--to participate in soft-core porn."

The digital revolution, of course, intensifies the consequences of participating in softcore porn -- even privately -- at a young age, and so this normalization can do some real damage down the road. "It is time," Garance writes, "to raise the age of consent from 18 to 21--"consent," in this case, referring not to sexual relations but to providing erotic content on film."

This is where things get iffy for me. I loathe Girls Gone Wild as I loathe few institutions in American life. Joe Francis is puddle-dwelling scum. But if you're an adult at 18-years-old, you should be able to have a beer, or for that matter, flash someone. I may not like the choice, and I certainly hope my little sister isn't going to be flashing anyone, but there's no alchemical transformation at 21 that hugely enhances decision-making abilities. Garance is right that maturation proceeds with age, but if the median 21-year-old is more mature, then 25-year-old is even more mature, and the 32-year-old more mature than that. The line is arbitrary -- what we're really trying to do is guide the decision-making. But if folks are adults at 18, then they're adults at 18. If we want to move that line to 21, that's a different conversation. But I'm very uncomfortable with enacting legislation that denies the ability of young women to exercise rational judgment over how they use their bodies.

For that reason, I'd be much more comfortable with a remedy that sought to outlaw the particular model of GGW, which seeks out girls whose decision-making capacities are severely impaired (because they're drunk) and does so in pressured environments (where groups of guys will be hooting for them to flash). It's an inherently coercive and exploitive approach, and I'd be glad to short-circuit it. But the problem, here, is GGW, not individual teenagers taking nude pictures, and I think the remedy should thus be more limited.

Update: Garance has some smart comments on the problems with defining informed consent and and some further clarifications as to what sort of law she'd like. Read them. I'm still unclear, however, on why we can't just say, "no recruiting for same-day porn videos at bars," or simply enforce a waiting period between signing consent and making your porn so the effects of haste and intoxication are blunted.

May 4, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

> If folks are adults at 18, then they're
> adults at 18. If we want to move that line
> to 21, that's a different conversation.

Of course, you would have to move the draft age to 21 also - even under W's Supreme Court I have a hard time seeing the Supremes allowing the disenfranchised and un-citizened to be hauled away to their deaths in mass with no say.

And that ain't gonna happen.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer | May 4, 2007 12:35:09 PM

I think you're right Ezra. Another consequence of such legislation could be the right trying to tack on parental notification for abortions for women under 21.

Posted by: b.d. | May 4, 2007 12:39:19 PM

Oh dear... It's... Return of The Porn Discussion!

Posted by: weboy | May 4, 2007 12:39:40 PM

I suppose we can start arresting college couples who take naughty pictures of each other.

Posted by: Atrios | May 4, 2007 12:40:09 PM

Having the age at which it's permissible to make available naked pictures of yourself line up with adulthood certainly seems like the most natural way to do it.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | May 4, 2007 12:50:58 PM

I just bopped over for a second and I don't have time to google around but I don't think 21 is as arbitrary as you say it is. There's brain development going on around that age that impacts decision making for the better. Again, can't find the proof so this is all something I remembered or dreamed or simply hope like hell is true. I tell my kids if they can stay away from the crazy, destructive stuff just until they're 21, there's a chance they won't want to do it so much anymore. Don't take that away from me ;)

Posted by: eRobin | May 4, 2007 12:51:17 PM

Garance doesn't understand. All these girls have to do is join the Republican Party and then there will be no negative consequences later in life for past participation in soft core porn

Posted by: rea | May 4, 2007 12:51:56 PM

GFR is usually very sharp, but that editorial was not well thought out. Joe Francis is a scumbag, there's no question about that, but I fail to see (and the article fails to identify) the great threat that he poses which necessitates raising the age of consent across the board for appearing naked on video.

I'm sorry if some drunk sorority girl gets drunk, flashes the camera, and then regrets it later. But that's no reason to prohibit the 19 year old who wants to act in a dirty movie (or for that matter, a "legitimate" film that includes a sex scene) from doing so.

Posted by: Jason | May 4, 2007 12:52:13 PM

For that reason, I'd be much more comfortable with a remedy that sought to outlaw the particular model of GGW, which seeks out girls whose decision-making capacities are severely impaired (because they're drunk) and does so in pressured environments (where groups of guys will be hooting for them to flash).

This idea seems no less ill-considered and unworkable than raising the "age of consent" to 21. What, exactly, constitutes a "pressured environment?" What, exactly, constitutes "severely impaired?" How are you going to make these determinations reliably so as to enforce the law fairly?

Posted by: JasonR | May 4, 2007 1:05:57 PM

i'm just not anti-nudity at all. what is wrong with a girl flashing someone, or a bunch of people for that matter? nothing. really, there's nothing wrong with it. where does the moralizing on this really come from? who cares?

Posted by: benj | May 4, 2007 1:06:27 PM

benj, I'm as pro-porn as they come, but you have to do some background research on the general scumbaginess of Joe Francis and his GGW enterprise.

Posted by: dbt | May 4, 2007 1:10:53 PM

JasonR:

I don't particularly like either of the suggested methods, but I disagree with you about the ambiguity of Ezra's suggestion.

The law is full of ambiguities. What exactly is an arrest under Miranda? What exactly is reasonable suspicion under Terry? Heck, as a baseline, what is probable cause? At what point do we have mutual assent for a contract?

None of these questions have hard and fast answers. Then again, the laws aren't made for hard and fast answers, but to give that sort of flexibility. That is the entire reason we have a tiered court system- strong authority from the top with useful factual analyses all the way down. The questions you pose have been applied rather successfully in other contexts, so I don't see a reason why they can't be expanded here.

Posted by: Fnor | May 4, 2007 1:14:55 PM

It is time," Garance writes, "to raise the age of consent from 18 to 21--"consent," in this case, referring not to sexual relations but to providing erotic content on film."

Okay, I admit, I've never read anything by Franke-Ruta except idiotic stuff like this that other bloggers have quoted. So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and just say I'm sure she has written something somewhere that isn't idiotic.

Posted by: Gary Sugar | May 4, 2007 1:15:54 PM

As an alumni of The Ohio State University I have to say god bless soft core porn and freshmen girls. University is about learning, both what is in books and what is in you.
JC

Posted by: James | May 4, 2007 1:17:52 PM

Don't take that away from me ;)

Parents might have to start telling their kids it's more complicated than "everything legal is good", god forbid.

Posted by: melior | May 4, 2007 1:18:07 PM

US society has problems with the adulthood line. It was 21 until it was pointed out that dying in Vietnam seemed like it was an adulthood thing. Then states backtracked on alcohol. And backtracker further on which crimes and at what age qualified for trial as an adult. Then the age when the dealth penalty could apply became an issue.

eRobin has it correct, partly, on the age when the brain is mostly in final judgemental order. The complication is that girls become brain-adults earlier (in years) than boys do - boys in the early 20's somewhere, depending. That's an interesting problem from a legal point of view. It would suggest that only females could be trusted at 18 to be making an adult decision to volunteer in the military services to get their brains rattled by IEDs - a result that would explode some large number of wingnut heads.

Since we've drawn the line at 18 for sexual consent and adult-enough-to-kill-in-war, it hardly seems reasonable to say girls (the most likely to be acting as adults at 18) can't show their naked breasts (but somehow the same anatomy is ok for boys at any age). The corallary on boys is that they shouldn't show anyone their sexual organs until they pass the adulthood tests on brain development. That wouldn't be any fun for the boys or girls.

The porn industry is huge and getting bigger each year. To cut off 'actors' because they aren't 21 or whatever would be a mortal blow - young-uns being prize material for hard or soft porn. Won't happen.

Why are female breasts considered sexual and must be covered up at least party (the nipples), but men's breasts, nipples and all, are family fare? Never has made sense to me.

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | May 4, 2007 1:21:07 PM

Couldn't a middle line be drawn by, perhaps, (a) requiring written consent in order for another person's image to be used for commercial purposes and (b) allowing such person (regardless of whether they are over or under the age of 21) to withdraw that consent within a "cooling-off" period of, say, 30 days?

Posted by: nolo | May 4, 2007 1:21:20 PM

Italics no more, I hope.

Posted by: nolo | May 4, 2007 1:23:14 PM

there's no alchemical transformation at 21 that hugely enhances decision-making abilities.

As was pointed out above, 21 ain't so arbitrary. One can actually argue that 18, while having ancient roots as an age of consent, is actually quite arbitrary. How come not 16? How come not 19?

In my experience, the big maturation in one's mindset comes when one is facing one's future. For your typical molly-coddled suburbanite, that occurs toward the end of the junior year in college -- i.e. around 21 (for your typical spoiled child of privilege, that never occurs, consider e.g., Bush, GW). IMHO, most college freshman aren't that much more mature than most high school juniors, e.g.

I fail to see the point of having 18 as the magical age then, except that it's problematic to have a group all at the same school split into consent-capable and non-consent-capable. But then, as young Ezra would I'm sure point out, it's problematic to have college freshman not legally able to drink and college seniors able to drink. Of course, it used to be that freshman could drink weak beer in many locals, but that's another story ...

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 1:23:37 PM

Why are female breasts considered sexual and must be covered up at least party (the nipples), but men's breasts, nipples and all, are family fare? Never has made sense to me.

Believe me, it made no sense to me back when I was doing a lot of outdoor manual labor, and I was the only one on my crew that couldn't take off her shirt on a hot day.

Posted by: nolo | May 4, 2007 1:25:03 PM

Italics stopped. You're welcome.

Posted by: brent | May 4, 2007 1:25:45 PM

GFR makes the case that woman are fragile, not responsible for their actions, brainless, and so need protection from men, by other men, most convincingly.

I had been operating on the assumption that at a given age, women are generally more mature than men, and that adult women and men are rational effective actors.

But I guess they really are victims.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 1:26:30 PM

The law is full of ambiguities. - Fnor

Shall I blogwhore my recent series of posts inspired by my recent experience as a(n alternate) juror regarding the concept of "reasonable doubt" and the idea that juror instructions are teh suck when you are used to thinking like an edumacated scientimist?

Nah ... I'd best not ...

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 1:26:43 PM

Far easier would be to pass a law stating that you *can't* sign away rights to payment for use of your image and that you are by law entitled not just to a flat fee for use of any image that includes you but to a royalty which could be set quite high, or set to something like a percentage of the gross profits of the individual/company exploiting your image for the life of the image.

aimai

Posted by: aimai | May 4, 2007 1:28:16 PM

Believe me, it made no sense to me back when I was doing a lot of outdoor manual labor, and I was the only one on my crew that couldn't take off her shirt on a hot day. - nolo

Sounds like if we had the ERA in place, you'd have a right to take your shirt off as well. I reckon if we broadcast "pass the ERA and we'll see more topless women", the opposition to it among male chauvanist pigs would fade? After all, no male chauvanist pig would oppose topless women lest people realize he's really closet case ...

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 1:29:08 PM

No question that Joe Francis is predatory scum and GGW evil, but I don't think there's a real core morality problem with respect to flashing/nudity.

Flashing is a transaction. What are the economics of this transaction from the woman's perspective?

Gain: attention, positive feedback, perhaps money.
Cost: ???

It seems like the main cost is living with the existence of the fact that you have now flashed somebody. Somebody who didn't before now knows what your breasts look like. Plus the social/cultural stigma that might now be attached to you by having wantonly displayed yourself. And potentially worse, the fact that this stigma might make you a target for harassment or worse.

But some women might not particularly care if another person knows what their breasts look like. Then the only real cost is coming from the moralizing of people like Ezra (and zillions of others) who think that somehow the flasher has given up something of value.

Get over the stigma. Women own their own bodies to do with what they please. Period. Showing part or all of it to you or anybody else does not change that in the slightest. It does not matter if that person is your wife, girlfriend, mother or daughter.

Lock up Joe Francis for being a predatory scumbag. But then just get out of the way and let parties interested in this type of transaction engage in it.

Posted by: drlemur | May 4, 2007 1:32:50 PM

I think we need to exclude women from bars until they are 21, unless they are chaparoned, increase the age of statutory rape for women to 21, and get them some chastity belts.

I think it's going to be interesting to see Amanda Marcotte rip GFR a new one, don't you Ezra?

Oh, actually Amanda has this to say:
People bust out the, “You don’t think women have enough agency!” thing when you say, for instance, that women might be flashing their tits at Joe Francis due to social pressures—which is a legit criticism if you’re like pulling an Ariel Levy and just wagging your finger at them. I’m interested in looking at why women with full agency might think that the best possible choice even as it may not be their heart’s desire or whatever.

So Amanda is either saying that in fact that women in bars are not rational effective actors or that she knows more than they do about what their heart's desires "or whatever" is. So I guess Amanda agrees, that women should not be allowed in bars unless they have adult supervision.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 1:36:17 PM

In the spirit of the "best cure for offensive speech is more speech," I believe the proper response to Girls Gone Wild is to require, by law, an equal number of Guys Gone Wild to be produced.

That I am a gay man has nothing to do with my making this proposal. I just want to be clear on that.

Posted by: Glenn | May 4, 2007 1:37:35 PM

University is about learning, both what is in books and what is in you. Ah yes, I've seen that video...*bow chicka bow bow*

Our society's age limits are filled with explicit notions that age, not experience or wisdom, makes one more adult. It's clear that our 60 YO president is far less responsible than a 17 YO girl tasked with being the sole breadwinner for her orphaned brothers and sisters. Some merit testing for adult responsibilities would be a nice idea. Pity it would be facism, but there you have it.

Posted by: Aredubya | May 4, 2007 1:41:36 PM

In the United States a 17-year old can join the military.

Posted by: Carl Nyberg | May 4, 2007 1:41:49 PM

Far easier would be to pass a law stating that you *can't* sign away rights to payment for use of your image and that you are by law entitled not just to a flat fee for use of any image that includes you but to a royalty which could be set quite high, or set to something like a percentage of the gross profits of the individual/company exploiting your image for the life of the image.

This will certainly make for more interesting TV when we have courtroom illustrators working for Monday Night Football and any other publically televised event.

However I like it, because it will remove all of the cameras from the public squares.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 1:47:47 PM

and backtracker further on which crimes and at what age qualified for trial as an adult. - Jim

Uh-oh ... you've got me started: a 15 year old man and a 35 year old woman have sex. She says she didn't consent. He says she did. Which one is guilty of rape according to the law which says "even if he lied about his age and she had a bona fide belief he was over 18, she's still guilty of statutory rape"?

And to the crowd which somehow seems to abandon all burdon of proof issues because, as we know (snark), nobody ever lies about sexual matters, so if someone says they are a victim of a sexual crime they must so be ... thus, since both parties are victims, they must both be believed and both are guilty of rape?

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 1:52:48 PM

Yeah, it sure ruined Helen Mirren's career and life.

Posted by: Horatio | May 4, 2007 1:53:55 PM

In the United States a 17-year old can join the military.

With parental approval. If you want to allow 17 yos to be able to flash people with parental approval, go right ahead.

Posted by: Disputo | May 4, 2007 1:54:04 PM

Our girls are only as weak and vulnerable as we make them. Teach them to succumb to the social pressure to conform, and you're teaching them to succumb to the social pressure to flash their tits in front of a camera.

Instead, empower them to flash their tits on their own terms.

Posted by: Jeff | May 4, 2007 1:54:54 PM

> For that reason, I'd be much more
> comfortable with a remedy that

The idea that citizens living a free and independent life are necessarily going to be "comfortable" at all times is one of the most pernicious in our culture.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer | May 4, 2007 1:57:05 PM

So is the solution changing the "victims" availability or changing the system that allow douchebags like francis to profit from drunken young women?

Hmmmmm.

Jerry wrote, "Amanda said either...women in bars are not rational effective actors"

Actually, remove women and replace it with anyone. Is a bar really the test venue for ultimate social responsibility and good decision making? It might be one of the tougher one but I would suggest the majority of Americans, male and female, fail that test regularly, with alarming frequency...and yet, somehow, our society endures.

aimai has a very interesting suggestion, "pass a law stating that you *can't* sign away rights to payment for use of your image and that you are by law entitled not just to a flat fee for use of any image that includes you but to a royalty" Which horrifies me as a photographer (not of naked women variety) because that has all kinds of ramifications but I think it is one suggestion that really hits at the heart of the matter without treating women like children.

Upping the drinking age did little or nothing to stop underage drinking. underage drinking just took different forms. There is no reason to believe that an arbitrary age limit here will change anything. I don't know what the answer is. I do know, however, what it isn't and GFR is wrong.

Posted by: ice weasel | May 4, 2007 2:02:50 PM

Glenn: to require, by law, an equal number of Guys Gone Wild to be produced.

The boys sure seem ready, if judged by the Mardi Gras video I've seen of old town New Orleans (and elsewhere). Dicks on parade!

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | May 4, 2007 2:03:44 PM

Some merit testing for adult responsibilities would be a nice idea. Pity it would be facism, but there you have it. - Aredubya

That's why I have such conniptions over consent and juvenile justice issues.

When I was a kid, I wanted to vote. I figured I followed the issues as well or better than most adults, so why not? Whenever I raised this issue, patronizing adults (except my parents, who were smart enough to know what I wanted and why) would say "well, if you want to get involved with our political process, there are ways even a kid can get involved". But I didn't want to be politically active (if only 'cause I'm lazy) ... I just wanted to vote.

Meanwhile, while I, a generally good kid who generally was mature for my age, was denied adult rights ... the bad kids, the kids who were the least mature judging by their actions, could get into trouble and be treated like adults because they got into trouble? If I wanted to be treated like an adult as a kid, all I needed to do was commit a major crime?

Something about that really did (and still does) rankle me. And to this day I have a craw about people who take the attitude "he's only X, what does he know" or who otherwise patronize or mollycoddle kids. Of course kids aren't always mature and do stupid things. But kids are not as dumb as the "but what about the children" so-called "family values" crowd sometimes seems to think ...

... and no -- this is not a consequence of "kids growing up too fast nowadays". Unless the so-called conservatives mistake 1950s TeeVee shows for history, which they do, they oughta realize that in the "good ol' days" kids were forced to grow up faster (as well as exposed to sex earlier -- people used to live in one room houses and have more than one kid ... you think the older kids didn't know about what happened 9 months before little sibling was born? and let us not forget all teh hawt animal sex one sees on a farm ...) than they do now.

Kids do need nurturing. They do need to be protected from themselves and others. But we shouldn't mollycoddle them like too many do, and we need to realize kids aren't idiots.

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 2:03:53 PM

Yall need to do your homework. Belle's take from a couple of months ago is just right:

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/03/06/also-feminism-is-not-responsible-for-girls-gone-wild/

If the link get's mutilated by the CSS then just google 'crooked timber girls gone wild'

Also read the comments.

I really find it hard to believe that GFR is buying into this whole young women can't be trusted to be responsible for their own bodies business that the enforced pregnancy nutcases use to erode abortion rights. Leninists everywhere.

Posted by: Russell L. Carter | May 4, 2007 2:09:21 PM

Believe me, it made no sense to me back when I was doing a lot of outdoor manual labor, and I was the only one on my crew that couldn't take off her shirt on a hot day.

There is a whole "topfreedom" movement that advocates the idea that women should be allowed to go shirtless in any venue that allows men to do it. I imagine if they had their way it would do more to put Mr. Francis out of business than any number of laws.

Posted by: jimBOB | May 4, 2007 2:10:49 PM

if folks are adults at 18, then they're adults at 18. If we want to move that line to 21, that's a different conversation.

Yep.


@aimai -- I understand what you're trying to do but that's a horrible suggestion. Think about it. 'Flat fee' payments for the use of one's image are not solely limited to GGW; they are the bedrock of the entertainment and marketing industries. Mandating residuals for every person who gets paid to put their face on screen is ridiculous.

Posted by: fiat lux | May 4, 2007 2:13:01 PM

Two people drive their cars to a bar. They drink. They both drive home. They both get into accidents. They are both charged with DUI.

Two people meet at a bar. They both drink. They wake up the next morning in the same bed. The woman doesn't remember what happened. The man says they had consensual sex. The man is arrested and charged with rape.

Under funny and somewhat related, check out this post In which a woman says that when men do not accept no for an answer, that's rape too.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 2:14:38 PM

Here's the jist as I see it; it is because of America's archaic attitudes towards nudity and it's absolute insistance that a woman not display her body in public that has made it possible for people like Francis to exploit those same women with his GGW videos.
So yes the guy may be a scum bag (may?) but he is just doing what all the money changers do everyday in this country. Sell guns to kill, sell wars to kill, sell gas guzzlers, sell political bs, sell sex. Sell, sell, sell. Welcome to America my friends, come inside, come inside.

Posted by: ISY Not | May 4, 2007 2:18:23 PM

I don't particularly agree with GFR, but Ezra's point about reaching "adulthood" is profoundly misguided. I grew up in NY, where the age of consent for sex is 17. I believe that here in Ohio it may be 16. In some states, in some circumstances, those (children?) can be charged with crimes as adults, sometimes not. In some states you can drive when you're 14, in NYC not until you're 18. In NJ you have to be 19 to smoke. If a state chose to, they could lower the voting age to 16 or 14. There is not, in any state, or in this country, and official age of adult-hood. Anyone who thinks all of those things should happen at the same time just because it is kinda consistent is being very very silly.

Posted by: Sam L. | May 4, 2007 2:23:46 PM

Anyone who thinks all of those things should happen at the same time just because it is kinda consistent is being very very silly.

Sam, I don't understand why the incontrovertible fact that our society and our governments have rarely been consistent as to the age at which one is given the freedom to engage in various activities makes it "very very silly" to think that consistency is possible and even desirable.

Posted by: Glenn | May 4, 2007 2:28:16 PM

It is stated above : "GFR makes the case that woman are fragile, not responsible for their actions, brainless, and so need protection from men, by other men, most convincingly."

We just got through with discussions of the Supreme Court decision where paternalistic men decided women are incapable of making their own decisions. Now we have women decrying the fact that women (of abortion age) should not be able to make up their minds about photos? So..maybe some will regret the photos (subtitute abortion) later, is that any reason to deny choice to all women?

Am I the only one to see a major incionsitency here?

Posted by: Mudge | May 4, 2007 2:30:17 PM

Garance is right that maturation proceeds with age, but if the median 21-year-old is more mature, then 25-year-old is even more mature, and the 32-year-old more mature than that. The line is arbitrary...

Actually, recent brain research shows that the line is not as arbitrary as once thought. There are indeed parts of the brain that pertain to judgement -- especially having to do with future consequences of present actions -- that don't fully develop until 18-21.
Teenagers are risk-takers for a reason, a good scientific reason. Their brains haven't finished growing enough for them to think about risks in the way an "adult" does yet. Unfortunately, this maturation process (as with all brain development) occurs at different times for different people, so it is hard to legislate when true "adulthood" occurs.

However, despite the difficulties, the fact is that as society we may want to rethink when we label people as "adults" when it comes to "risky" behaviors like smoking, drinking, or enlisting in the military. Of course, the biggest impediment would probably be that the powers that be may not want to wait until that particular part of the brain that judges risk matures before asking some 17 or 18 year old to join up.

Finally, as it pertains to the Girls Gone Wild business...I think men are going to have a different view of this than women. While it is highly noble of male commentators to bestow "respect" on women by allowing them the "freedom" to become sexual objects for the benefit of men if they so freely choose, it is rather sad that those same commentators don't acknowledge that the sexualization of young girls in our culture does less to promote a healthy (and equal) sexuality in women than it does to remake the old virginal pedestal that used to distort girl's self images and stifle women's value as equal contributors to society and replace it with a stripper's pole. Both approaches are equally detrimental to a woman's own sense of self and neither is "enlightened" or "progressive". Please, fellas, I know it doesn't come easily, but can't we get past the virgin/whore dichotomy?

Posted by: Katerina | May 4, 2007 2:35:32 PM

There is not, in any state, or in this country, and official age of adult-hood.

I'll take the age at which one can contract as the official age of consent. That is, after-all, what we are talking about here.

Posted by: Disputo | May 4, 2007 2:37:24 PM

it is rather sad that those same commentators don't acknowledge that the sexualization of young girls in our culture does less to promote a healthy (and equal) sexuality in women than it does to remake the old virginal pedestal that used to distort girl's self images and stifle women's value as equal contributors to society and replace it with a stripper's pole... Please, fellas, I know it doesn't come easily, but can't we get past the virgin/whore dichotomy?

Strawman alert!

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 2:37:48 PM

Isnt what GGW is doing already only questionably legal. If these girls are already intoxicated, doesnt that make any contract they sign null and void (or at least contestable)?

I am surprised this hasnt been tested.

Posted by: yep | May 4, 2007 2:38:03 PM

They both get into accidents. They are both charged with DUI.

Fair enough, I guess.

Two people meet at a bar. They both drink. They wake up the next morning in the same bed. The woman doesn't remember what happened. The man says they had consensual sex. The man is arrested and charged with rape.

What if the man doesn't remember either? Do you charge both partners with rape?

Under funny and somewhat related, check out this post In which a woman says that when men do not accept no for an answer, that's rape too. - jerry

Actually, I agree with this reasoning to some degree. In fact, I think the "much heterosexual sex is rape"/"seduction is rape" strawfeminists are not so far gone out in left field as their use as strawfeminists would indicate: how is it meaningful consent if one of the partners only consents because she (or he, for that matter) said yes because of constant pressure.

Alas, it seems too many relationships exist simply because of the Pepe LePew model of one partner pursuing the other until (typically, due to our society's gender roles) she relents. But what kind of relationship based on mutual consent is that?

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 2:39:23 PM

She's not recognizing that this would be a First Amendment battle. Unlike alcohol consumption, sexual expression via adult entertainment is protected speech. You can try and reverse that and it may be possible given the gray area of obscenity and community standards. But you cannot deny a certain group of legal adults a form of protected speech based on their age. The only way to get around a free speech battle would be to raise the age that someone is considered an adult to 21.

And of course I think this is bull. It would also involve getting all US ISPs to block adult content with 18-20 year olds coming from offshore servers. That's probably a legal minefield too and an enforcement nightmare unless ISPs simply choose to block all adult sites not hosted in the US. And that's not likely to happen.

Posted by: Gabe | May 4, 2007 2:41:03 PM

Well DAS, in many marriages where the husband learns to just say "yes dear", ask yourself who is raping who?

I think relationships should be based on mutual consent, but at the same time you deplore verbual suasion that has the power to overcome dissent, you should also acknowledge how women are taught to remain coy, to demand mind reading abilities, and actually to be turned off from men that ask for consent.

Seventeen Magazine Tells Girls to Advise Boys as Follows

A friend of mine named Rick sent me an interesting clipping from the May 2007 issue of Seventeen Magazine in which girls/young women advise boys/young men on how to “be the best kisser.” One letter writer, Jessica, 23, wrote:

“Dear cute boyfriend: Here’s how to give me the kind of kiss girls dream about. XOXO! DON’T: Ask if you can kiss me - just do it. That’s way hotter.”

Nice sentiments, but as Rick points out, in today’s world Jessica’s advice can lead to the following outcomes:

1) Boys labeled as sexual aggressors.

2) Boys hauled up on sexual harassment charges for violating codes (such as Oberlin University) requiring that you must ask and silence means, “no.”

3) Girl has no responsibility and can decide after the fact whether the boy’s initiative was “unwanted.”

4) Girl maintains facade of innocence.

5) All of the above.

Point #3 is particularly prescient. Sad, isn’t it?

While I think relationships should be based on mutual consent, I think all of us, feminists included, should be living in the reality based world and not mandating laws based on some ideal, and never well-defined world.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 2:49:03 PM

there's no alchemical transformation at 21 that hugely enhances decision-making abilities. ... The line is arbitrary

As several have pointed out, this isn't true. Current research implies that the brain physiology required for wise decision-making isn't fully in place until the early 20s. (Studies of auto accident deaths sadly confirm this.)

Not sure what the best way to deal with Girls Gone Wild is. I haven't seen much of it, but I did see some clips for their current DVD recently, and it wasn't just flashing and nudity. There were also bits of vaguely soft-core porn type stuff mixed in. The age-of-consent thing is worth serious consideration, I suppose. Diminished capacity from drinking or drugs could be a factor, as it is in sexual assault law. I think it would be hard to limit based on "pressured environment" if that means a bunch of people cheering and egging on.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 4, 2007 2:53:38 PM

The fact that the piece was published in that e-rag, Opinion Journal, tells me all that I need to know.

Posted by: David | May 4, 2007 2:54:03 PM

Whatever, I'm really really glad that some posters had a chance to stand up for the old "women shout rape all the time but its never true" and "feminists are all anti sex except when they are all sluts and pro sex and shit." lines. Jeebus, how did a discussion about sexual exploitation of drunk girls become a discussion about male fantasies that they are all just one inoccent fuck away from being charged with rape.

Maybe its just the, oh, 50 percent of my wide aquaintance that are male but though I personally know many women who have been raped in the *knocked down and beaten by strangers or close friends* kind of rape I know of *no men* who have been falsely accused of rape by girlfriends or former girlfriends. None, zero. The plural of anecdote is certainly not data but there is something interesting going on here and I tend to think its that the stories of "innocent men" being charged with "rape" as a result of women getting drunk too much is either apocryphal, largely propagandistic, or if accurate is limited to the small number of guys who have to *get women drunk * in order to get laid. Its pretty clear that in the ordinary course of living like a regular human being a given man would have no more liklihood of being accused of rape than he would of stealing a mercedes or setting fire to an orphanage.

aimai

Posted by: aimai | May 4, 2007 2:54:15 PM

Unfortunately, this maturation process (as with all brain development) occurs at different times for different people, so it is hard to legislate when true "adulthood" occurs. - Katerina

IIRC, though, they've found that the time at which it's pretty much finished (i.e. the time of closing of the period of adolescence) is pretty easy to determine -- it corresponds to when your "natural" bedtime stops getting later and later: typically kids are relatively fairly early to rise and early to bed. And typically so are mature people. But teens are infamously later to rise and later to bed. IIRC, the point at which you stop going to bed later and later (for me it was when I was about 22) is a good marker for the end of the pruning process that matures the brain and eliminates those risky decision making pathways.

Should this be legislated (have a "maturity test" once a year in which a person has a flexible enough schedule so they can relax to a natural sleep/wake cycle and see how it's changed from the last year ... and when the bedtime stops getting later, you get to be an adult?)?

IIRC, they've found that the rate of brain maturation has (perhaps not too surprisingly given the way in which brains have to respond to, well, external stimuli -- but shocking to the nature not nurture essentialist and the eating cheatos in mother's basement, er brain in a vat crowds, I'm sure) varied over history and between cultures/social groups ... but I can't, alas, remember any references ...

Of course, the key concern with tests for adulthood is well, as my parents always reminded me as a kid "remember how you learned about those 'literacy tests' in the South they had before the Voting Rights Act? ..."

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 3:02:18 PM

Aimai, I think the discussion is trying to resolve what seems to be a logical conundrum: how can women be both rational effective actors with agency equal to men and still be victims that need special protection and is it patronizing, condescending of society to take that notion of agency away from adults.

I would think you would be happy to have this discussion in which you could explain to us how there is no paradox here.

Regretfully, your approach seems to be to shout that we are chauvinists, and males engaged in fantasy, and to equate our discussion with trying to deny that rape exists.

Its pretty clear that in the ordinary course of living like a regular human being a given man would have no more liklihood of being accused of rape than he would of stealing a mercedes or setting fire to an orphanage.

About a year after my divorce, while we were still settling child custody issues, I was accused of raping my wife years earlier. No evidence was presented at all, the charge had never been made before. It was made then to the court psychologist, but never actually made in front of the judge under an oath. The result was that instead of being given the custody I had asked for, the psychologist said, "there is absolutely no evidence of this at all, but I have to take the charge itself seriously, and so I recommend that...." the charge has never been raised since.

Now anecdote is not data, but we can have a dickfight about our anecdotes all day long if that's what you are interested in.

Or you can actually help us understand why there is no paradox here.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 3:06:49 PM

Its pretty clear that in the ordinary course of living like a regular human being a given man would have no more liklihood of being accused of rape than he would of stealing a mercedes or setting fire to an orphanage. - aimai

That's probably true. But the reason why men who worry about false accusations of rape are not only those who "have to get the woman drunk" is that, if you're accused of stealing a mercedes or setting fire to an orphanage, those accusations probably wouldn't get anywhere unless the mercedes was stolen or the orphanage burned down. OTOH, in the case of rape, there might not be any real physical evidence that a crime has even taken place -- so if a false accusation were to be made, it would be harder to disprove (and when you'd deny the allegation, in spite of the presumption of innocence, people will say "well you're denial doesn't hold water -- after all, who makes this kind of allegation falsely").

The closest thing is if someone gave you the mercedes and then claimed you stole it. But if someone gave you a car, there would probably be some sort of evidence you were given or lent the car (i.e. a title being signed over, multiple witnesses of people saying you were lent the car), so it wouldn't be a he said/she said sort of thing.

Given the likely almost zero rate at which such false accusations occur, it is paranoia to worry about a false accusation of rape, but it isn't quite the same as any other false accusation as people are convicted of sexual crimes based solely on the word of the complaining potential victim, with little other evidence -- because the jury finds whatever doubts are raised by the defendant's claim of "it was consentual" to be unbelievable because the complainant never lies yet a perp certainly is lying ...

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 3:13:31 PM

Oh, and when I say it had never been made before, that includes when her first attorney, tried and failed to get a temporary restraining order against me 18 months earlier. The (false) rape accusation wasn't brought up then. It was never made until child custody became the issue and it looked as though the court psychologist was going to grant me an equal share of custody.

False allegations never occur.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 3:15:58 PM

Well DAS, in many marriages where the husband learns to just say "yes dear", ask yourself who is raping who? - jerry

Interestingly, many of the relationships I've seen that begin as "the guy persues the girl so strongly you can hardly say she consented" turn into exactly those sorts of "yes dear" relationships.

I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I'm sure if I didn't have work I should be doing, I could spin up a rather interesting feminist-flavored analysis of what is going on here that would be quite enlightening and possibly even predictive.

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 3:18:10 PM

Dear cute boyfriend: Here’s how to give me the kind of kiss girls dream about. XOXO! DON’T: Ask if you can kiss me - just do it. That’s way hotter.”

This kind of thinking disturbs me greatly -- where does it stop?

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 3:21:19 PM

Given the likely almost zero rate at which such false accusations occur, it is paranoia to worry about a false accusation of rape

Can you give me a citation for that please? Cause we have all seen citations that say it occurs anywhere from 8% to 50% of the time.

OTOH, I am pleased that everyone here agrees that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 3:21:32 PM

Different cultures consider people adults at different ages. It's a cultural artifact. The United States sin laws though throw a wrench in the works.

At age eighteen, we can vote. We can buy and consume tobacco products. We can pose naked for photos or videos. We can have sexual congress with other people of same age or older. We can serve in the armed forces.

At age eighteen, we CAN'T buy or consume alchohol. We CAN'T rent a car (though not a law per se).

In Japan, it's a bit simpler. At age twenty, you become an adult. You gain both voting rights and freedom over your own body (up to and including the right to commit suicide).

These age restrictions aren't set in stone. But it would be nice to have a single, agreed-upon age where all the switches flip at once. As it is, many people see it as an abitrary jumble of laws and moral dictates.

Posted by: yagisencho | May 4, 2007 3:23:50 PM

f I didn't have work I should be doing...

I think many of us agree with that too. :(

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 3:23:58 PM

Maybe I will blogwhore after all ... jerry and aimai, at least, might have a few things to say about my recent posts regarding my recent jury experience ...

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 3:29:04 PM

While it is highly noble of male commentators to bestow "respect" on women by allowing them the "freedom" to become sexual objects for the benefit of men if they so freely choose, it is rather sad that those same commentators don't acknowledge that the sexualization of young girls in our culture does less to promote a healthy (and equal) sexuality in women than it does to remake the old virginal pedestal that used to distort girl's self images and stifle women's value as equal contributors to society and replace it with a stripper's pole.

This sort of gender bias masquerading as analysis is well past it's sell by date. A few examples of the objected to behaviors rather than a sarcastic, collective indictment based on genitalia would be far more illuminating.

Your point, stripped of rhetorical bombast, about the peculiar social and cultural pressures on young women is sound. However, in the context of the discussion, Garance's commentary and the question of agency, it resolves nothing. These pressures exist in every aspect of women's lives and can't be invoked only when it suits a particuliar argument.

One cannot coherently argue that young women are competent to decide when and with whom they will engage in sex, or whether they will or will not bring a pregnancy to term and simultaneously argue that they need paternalistic protection from the choice to be photographed in the nude. Whether one approves or dissapproves of the choice made doesn't enter in to it.

As has been pointed out above, this does not preclude the regulation of noxious enterprises such as GGW on other grounds. There is a very real issue of equity involved. As a profit making enterprise exploiting personal images, I would say that anyone appearing in such videos is entitled to royalties. Likewise, the question of whether a person who is intoxicated is competent to sign a release of any kind deserves investigation.

Posted by: W.B. Reeves | May 4, 2007 3:40:19 PM

DAS, I think some of the problems you encountered are that a) lawyers and judges never were scientists b) there is no free market for lawyers, because a free market means that the buyer can walk away, but when you need a lawyer, you need a lawyer. B) results in C) lawyers charge so much, that the person that needs one cannot afford to hire one for the amount of time actually required, and so D) (from A and C) the case that gets presented is usually pretty woeful from both a factual, legal, and logical point of view.

My feeling is that there are two legal systems. One is for the OJs that can afford a team of lawyers full time. They get reasonable legal defenses. The other is for people that can afford only a part-time lawyer. Their legal defense suffers in that the lawyer is to diluted to be of much use except for understanding the procedures and jargon. (The third legal system is for people too poor to afford any lawyers.)

I have no solution, except that 1) understanding it's not a free market, I am for regulation of lawyer fees, but that will never happen. And 2) You and I should have the option of appearing as peers with our lawyer. Because you and I know the specific facts in our case. But what happens is that in court, you and I are forced to sit mutely by our lawyers side and what then happens is that we see both lawyers (both too busy to know the facts) forget the actual facts, construct bizarro, rebuttable theories, and generally just suck any amount of fact-finding and truth-finding out of a hearing.

Sadly, the monetary and system incentives are all for the repeated players, the lawyers and the judge, so it won't change.

But it's why court is not for justice, and not for truth finding, it's why court only tries to guarantee you some amount of due process.

Posted by: jerry | May 4, 2007 3:42:48 PM

I think we should only allow public nudity among the 65+ crowd.

Who's with me?

Posted by: Matt Singer | May 4, 2007 3:57:54 PM

Jerry,

In the case I saw tried, I thought both the defense and the prosecutor were reasonably effective. The defense attorney would have been more effective if he actually sought out the evidence that was mysteriously missing from the prosecutor's case ... but that's kinda beyond the scope of what defense attorneys should have to do (although an expensive enough attorney would, as you would no doubt point out, have the resources to do that).

I hope and trust that the prosecutor's chewing out the police right about now for their incompetent police work almost loosing the case for them.

But in the case I saw, I think the main issue was indeed your point (A). If they were trained as scientists, they would have thought to have provided meta-evidence, so to speak, as to the reliability of witnesses under certain circumstances. My beef was "how can I judge whether my doubts are reasonable without any evidence as to how much I can trust testimony with a known quantity of flaws". I know that judging evidence is not a science, as the saying would go, but still, research has been done and, speaking as scientist rather than a juror, if they were presenting papers rather than cases, I would be able to question that and their response would allow me to be more certain in my decision.

This is not to discount the market issues that are involved. In general, too many free market fanatics forget about (the lack of) elasticity in real world markets. We wouldn't make engineering related policies ignoring the existance of friction -- so why do people feel that it's possible to make economic policy and ignore that markets are not perfectly elastic, etc?

As to your point (2), though, the defendant did seem to be participating in his own defense to the full extant which he, as a reasonably educated, albeit not the brightest bulb in the chandalier, was capable -- although he let his attorneys speak for him, he was obviously conferring with them, etc.

Posted by: DAS | May 4, 2007 4:05:16 PM

With regard to false rape accusations, it's important to remember that most rape laws require force as well as a lack of consent. In most jurisdictions, you can't be convicted of rape just because you have sex with a woman who didn't want to have sex with you (unless she was unconscious, etc.).

Posted by: Jason | May 4, 2007 4:14:22 PM

Perhaps, at a minimum, consent forms should be invalidated if the signers were intoxicated. Especially if they are under the legal drinking age.

Posted by: Chris Andersen | May 4, 2007 4:23:46 PM

I think we should only allow public nudity among the 65+ crowd.

Last nude beach I was at, I think this law was already in effect, Matt. Sure seemed to be, anyway.

Posted by: Glenn | May 4, 2007 4:26:21 PM

Biggest non-issue ever.

A century ago, a glimpse of ankle was a naughty sight. When the Bikini swimsuit was first unveiled, it was considered so risqué that the designer couldn't find a professional model who'd dare to wear it on the runway. And my own sister was sent home from high school in 1969 because her skirt hem was three inches above her knee. The difference between then and now is progress. Why stop here?

We don't need more laws punishing people for showing their skin, we need fewer - none at all would be just about ideal. Everybody in this God damned country should spend some time at a clothing-optional beach or a nudist resort, and then just calm down and shut up.

The editors of Playboy and the Sun might disagree, as it would render their most profitable products superfluous, but the cost to America's GNP would be more than made up by the savings in public expenditures spent nationwide arresting and trying people for failing to attire themselves in a style satisfactory to the Mullahs of Iran.

Posted by: W. Kiernan | May 4, 2007 4:45:27 PM

A century ago, a glimpse of ankle was a naughty sight

Cole Porter, prescient (and queer, of course) as ever:

In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows,
Anything Goes.

He foresaw blogging, too. Amazing:

Good authors too who once knew better words,
Now only use four letter words
Writing prose, Anything Goes.

Posted by: Glenn | May 4, 2007 5:05:08 PM

I'm quickly becoming disillusioned with the Democratic party. It's clear it's comprised mostly of paternalistic wankers who want to codify their own value judgments into law. If supporting Democrats will just bring us this crap, I don't think it's worth it. I'm sorry, but it's not worth wasting energy for the lesser of two evils.

Jason: I wish it were that easy. The problem is, a number of people want to turn the presence of alcohol into a defacto case of rape. If I meet a girl at a bar, we each have three drinks and we go home together, to most people nothing untoward happened. But to some feminists, I just raped her. Despite the fact that we were both under the influence, and nobody objected. They claim this is rape because even the slightest bit of alcohol will so destroy the decision making process so as to render consent unattainable. While such a state is reachable, where a person is no longer capable of understanding their surroundings, this is not usually what's meant by "drunk" in this circumstance. Men hear that a lot, and that fuels a lot of fears of false rape accusations.

Besides, didn't you ever read Othello? Accusations need only be made for them to work their magic, after that peoples imaginations will fill in the rest.

Posted by: soullite | May 4, 2007 5:27:55 PM

Wihle we're at it, can politicians please stop referring to men and women in the military as "kids"?

Posted by: Oberon | May 4, 2007 5:53:48 PM

So let me get this straight... Let's say I don't go to college and I get married right out of high school (or for that matter, do both). My spouse can't take naked pictures of me until I turn 21? Or, is there the usual exception for "married adults" which is, of course, only available to heterosexuals. So, either I get thrown in jail for taking naked pictures with my spouse, or I get conferred with some special "married/hetero" status that allows me to do things that others my age cannot because I'm supposedly more "adult" than they are... since I'm married... (and thus by definition, straight). Is that about right? 20 y.o. gay male, lesbian woman, or unmarried hetero is automatically assumed to be less capable of making smart decisions about their bodies and lives than I am because I got married right out of HS? Or is there no exception and the person I (legally) share my life and bed with has no right to see or possess naked images of me?

Posted by: monkeymania | May 4, 2007 6:40:00 PM

Fnor,

No, the law is not "full of ambiguities." Mostly, laws are quite clear and explicit, precisely because of the risk of injustice that vague laws create. The kind of terminally vague law Ezra is alluding to is an invitation for abuse.

Posted by: JasonR | May 4, 2007 7:56:40 PM

jerry@11:14, the essay you linked to also claims that if a young man says "if you won't have penetrative sex with me then I'll do it with someone else", that too is a form of coercion and hence rape. The essay neglects to say whether it is equally rape if it's a young woman making the threats, but I suppose it must be.

Posted by: Lyle | May 4, 2007 8:39:40 PM

So I discover my son, who has comitted a crime (it was a serious one, I readily admit, I turned him in.) is considered a juvenile until the age of 18 in civil matters, but in a criminal one is adult at 17, or less, depending on the severity of the offense. But when it comes to alcohol, nope, 21 is the magic number irrespective of gender. Garance would have me accept that females should deserve special attention to make certain they are not abused by themselves in engaging in drunken activity (heaven forbid they ahould make an informed choice to do such things, the little flowers).

Sound like an incoherent approach to the granting of age majority rights? It sure is.

Posted by: fcc | May 4, 2007 9:17:24 PM

Crossed posted comment from garance's site....sorry not, much activity there for a discussion.

For Garance...

Are you opposed to pornography in general?

Intoxication issues aside….why do you submit to the idea that these women should be embarrassed later in life for showing their breasts? Why do you impose that they should have to regret their decision instead of looking back without remorse and with a laugh, or even, dare say it, pride?

It seems like an awful puritanical approach and one that furthers ideas about women that most of us are staunchly opposed to…they can’t make their own decisions. Sure you include males in ‘your law’, but come on, the genesis of the idea is GGW…women!

The fact that a ’sober’ woman should later feel any sense of regret for showing her breasts as opposed to her smile at the age of 19 is an indictment on our society. Hell I’m embarrassed at old pictures of me…with clothes on, but I don’t want the use of photography equipment banned.

If you really want to make a difference on society, instead of working to further the insecurities of woman about showing their god given bodies, how about applying this argument to the juvenile justice system???

You don’t want to let a 19 year old woman pose for GGW, but a 14 year old can get tried as an adult? Fix that problem and then we will talk. Otherwise you are pandering and in my opinion displaying your true aversion, which is to the display of the female body in public. That is the fault of society and your puritanical upbringing, not the fault of women whose values don’t mirror yours.

Posted by: wtf | May 4, 2007 10:00:55 PM

The selling point for it for me is it would protect the right to flash someone. Girls Gone Wild and the whole porn thing ruined Mardi Gras. I remember the days when public nudity and the bacchanalia went out without the fear that it would end up being the ruin of your life. Young people should be allowed to party and get naked in public without having to star in porn, and raising the porn consent age to 21 would assist in that.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 5, 2007 12:07:42 AM

Not that I'm for it, but the protecting-the-bacchanal angle needs to be considered before the people who equate this with moralizing and finger-wagging dismiss the suggestion.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 5, 2007 12:09:25 AM

And no, jerry, I was saying your argument about "agency" is disingenous, because you're only concerned about women's right to full adulthood in those instances where that right protects your ability to jerk off to naked teenagers. Abortion? Birth control? Couldn't hear you over the wanking.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 5, 2007 12:12:53 AM

Hey ya'll

While you're at it, can you do something about my high school play being posted on youtube? Its really embarrassing!!!

Thanks!
Peyton Manning

Posted by: Peyton Manning | May 5, 2007 1:30:08 AM

Sorry Amanda you must be talking about your own fingers. I believe in keeping the government off of our bodies and out of bedrooms. That means I am pro-choice, and pro-birth control.

The authoritarian crap comes from you and yours, because you believe that the government should mandate the use of vaccines for girls age 9-12, and in particular a vaccine that was fast tracked, a vaccine whose testing is disputed, and a vaccine that will probably become obsolete in the 25-35 years before the girls are likely to come down with HPV. And a vaccine that still does not eliminate the need for an annual pap smear.

But it's you Ms. Ms Marcotte that claims you want the Government off our bodies that would mandate that vaccine and make it opt-out, even though in many states there is no opt-out choice that really means opt-out the way you and I commonly think of it. Opt-out means a) find a physician, or b) your priest has to agree, and in many states there is no c) I don't like it. And opt-out in many states means opt-out of HPV? Than you also opt out of Rubella and EVERYTHING else.

But the hell with that, you want to force a needle into kids.

So please don't tell me that I am being disingenuous because I treat adults like adults and kids like kids and demand the government stay the hell off of my body AND your skanky assed body as well.

You may resume your own wank fest. Finger smell good with all that dung you fling on others? It's a strange fetish Amanda, but if that's what turnz you on....

And that's the deal Amanda, you want some adult rights for teenagers, but not full adult rights for 18 and 19 year old women? A bit condescending and patronizing of you isn't it? And a bit judgmental as well. You sound like my father. You sound Patriarchal. But that's your schtick isn't it. Claim there's some mythical conspiracy to keep you down and swap it for actual legal power structures that actually do work to oppress men and women to fit your desires. Are you sure you're a lefty? You sound like you would fit right in with the Falwells and Robertsons.

What do you think Ezra, you and Amanda are link buddies from way way back. Are you going to call her out on her authoritarian bullshit? Her judgmental non-pro-sex feminist fascism? Or are you just going to be the echo-feminist sensitive new age guy and let her run roughshod over the liberal blogosphere?

You enable her Ez, but you don't believe her bullshit. If you did, you would post about it more than once every three months. You don't believe her bullshit but you let her spew and you don't call her on it. Why is that Ez? It's because she's a girl isn't it? Pretty condescending and patronizing of you Ez.

Ezra, if you believe her, support her. If you think she's full of shit, support her too buy challenging her. It's the intellectually honest and "Wonk'd" thing to do.

But Ezra, your behavior shows you think she is wrong.

Posted by: jerry | May 5, 2007 1:47:12 AM

I didn't read all the comments, so I apologize if someone else has made the same point, but this reminds me of my mother-in-law judging young kids with tattoos that they are going to regret when they are older.

GGW has changed the equation. Enough young women are on tape flashing their bosoms that it can't conceivably cause the same kind of distress in twenty years that a similar video made twenty years ago would cause today.

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is not my point. My point is that it's a little prissy to assume that it's going to ruin these women's lives when somebody finds a twenty-year old flashing video.

Posted by: Sean | May 5, 2007 3:28:04 AM

I don't think Ms. Franke-Ruta goes far enough so I am proposing an improvement to her suggestion:
http://jonswift.blogspot.com/2007/05/raising-minimum-age-for-porn.html

Posted by: Jon Swift | May 5, 2007 3:41:51 AM

shorter garance: if stupid drunk bitches can't stop behaving like stupid drunk bitches, then we'll have to make it against the law for them to drink a couple cheerleader beers and show off their tata's 'cause they certainly won't stop on their own...

Posted by: Fratty Dude | May 5, 2007 3:07:18 PM

Jerry, your deep concern that you might have to resign yourself to masturbating over unattractive 21-year-old hags has been duly noted. It's impressive, really. Some of us would think that our tits don't fall that far that fast, but I do understand that anything less than fresh out of high school is erection-withering.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 5, 2007 5:19:34 PM

I'm not going to comment at length on your strong concern that your ability to force sex freely so long as you don't beat someone up not be trampled upon, because I've already had to boil the keyboard once today.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 5, 2007 5:20:50 PM

Jerry, your deep concern that you might have to resign yourself to masturbating over unattractive 21-year-old hags has been duly noted. It's impressive, really. Some of us would think that our tits don't fall that far that fast, but I do understand that anything less than fresh out of high school is erection-withering.

...

I'm not going to comment at length on your strong concern that your ability to force sex freely so long as you don't beat someone up not be trampled upon, because I've already had to boil the keyboard once today.

Amanda, what planet are you living on? Where did I say anything remotely like that?

It's sad Amanda, how free you feel to distort and just lie about what others have to say. What age were you when you learned that skill?

In the meantime you still haven't addressed any of the issues: how it is you can take the rights away from 18-21 year old women, and how you can claim to want the government off our bodies while still wanting to mandate that government jam a needle into a 10 year old girl.

Somehow you think you can deflect everybody's attention from your lack of an argument by making some weird statement about my sexual habits. Does that work for you often? I bet you think it does. What age were you when that tactic first became available?

Can Ezra read what I wrote, what others in this thread have written, read how you have distorted that and still some how believe you have anything to do with the liberal progressive movement? Ezra how about it? What IS the connection for you between Amanda and progressive liberalism? Between Amanda and intellectually honest discussions? Ezra, how about it?

Amanda you're almost 30, but this high school girl has you pegged -- a high school mean girl.

Elana Altman, a senior, is editor in chief of Fresh-Angles.com at the Bergen County Academies and is active in the Junior State of America and American Civil Liberties Union chapters at her school.

... Even though we are more socially and emotionally mature, we come with the whole cattiness, back-stabbing, rumor-spreading sort of thing.

I know I wrote a column earlier saying that girlish cliques are not bad or mean, and I'll stick by it, but just because cliques as a whole are not mean or exclusive does not mean that girls as individuals are not mean, back-stabbing and manipulative.

When things like this happen, it seems as if the title of the book could be changed to "Girls are stupid, throw rocks at them" and seem just as true. Or, since I am a girl and thus more likely to use girly tactics, "Girls are stupid, spread rumors about them."

Boys are usually more straight-up and honest. If they don't like you, they just won't be friends with you; they won't pretend to be your friend and then start whispering about you the second you leave their presence. This also means that if your hair looks bad or you look fat in a dress, a guy is much more likely to tell you, while a girl is more likely to lie to keep you happy.

So, yes, sometimes I'd like to throw rocks at boys, but sometimes they are the best friends a girl could have. They can give us honest opinions, insider guy advice and fun with much less drama.

And yes, sometimes I'd like to spread rumors about girls, but I could not live without having my girlfriends' emotional maturity and compassion when I'm upset or their shopping and gossiping habits when I just need some lighthearted fun in my life.

You're stuck in your high school mean girl days, Amanda, and with your banning policy you've established quite the clique around you. So congratulations for that. Enjoy your rocks.

I apologize for having to point that out.

Posted by: jerry | May 5, 2007 10:09:40 PM

Wow, I'd never heard of nor encountered Amanda before today, but she's really deranged! There was, like, a fairly reasonable discussion going on, and she just charged in with a spew of scatalogical name calling. So, I check out her site, and find her banning people for being rude! (Actually, they weren't that rude -- I think they really got banned for disagreeing with her.)

Posted by: Nick Danger | May 10, 2007 11:09:23 AM

Someone asked me why I was at Amanda's site, and I told the tale of what I read hear. Someone at the site wound up saying that I was deliberately lying about Amanda to derail their discussion of women's consent because it made me afraid that I might no longer be able to rape women! Apparently, this is a common form of "argument" for Amanda and her friends: disagree with them, and you must be a jerk off or a rapist!

Posted by: Nick Danger | May 10, 2007 12:32:35 PM

Umm Nick, Jerry did link to a serious discussion of coercion in sexual relationships with the text "funny" so the idea that Jerry is having a reasonable with anybody is a little laughable.

The problem with the GGW phenomenon is that women have equated temporary male approval with power because it feels good instead of being focused on what makes a person truly powerful. None of that is resolved with laws and regulations. Much of feminism has been coopted by the culture but the one thing that has been dropped is the sincere belief that male approval is not important and self-respect is tantamount.

Posted by: ellenbrenna | May 10, 2007 1:36:49 PM

Jerry/Nick, spare yourself the agony of deconstructing Amanda.
If you disagree with one of her goals, you are a troll to her.
If you agree with one of her goals, but disagree with her method of achieving them, you are a concern troll.
If you agree with her, you are cool.

Her site is a fascinating window into the feminist viewpoint, but any meaningful discussion that does not toe the party line is met with some serious mudslinging. Pretty childish.

Need proof? Go read some of their posts on the Duke Lacrosse Scandal.

Blowing over inconvenient facts, making up other facts, smearing their opponents...
They stole a playbook right out of the wingnut playbook.

At least the wingnuts will defend their stupid viewpoints to the bitter end. When Amanda gets backed into a corner, she just bans the inconvenient truth-speaker, or closes the post off to further comment.


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Posted by: judy | Oct 8, 2007 5:41:14 AM

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