Ezra Klein: PSA

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May 29, 2007

PSA

It's come to my attention that Fred Jones recently forwarded the comments of one (and only one) commenter to the FBI for being too, in Jones' judgment, anti-American. A couple of changes of policy as a result:

1) Fred is done on the site, of course. But banning software is imperfect because IPs can be changed, so it may end up meaning various posts have to be deleted at the end of each day. I'd ask for help in this, and for folks to ignore provocation as I work out the kinks.

2) This site, generally speaking, is supposed to be a safe place for discussion, where even comments critical of American can be aired. But it is a public forum, and the comment sections have a lot of readers who don't post. Don't say anything that you think could get you in trouble. If you do see comments that unsettle you, e-mail me and we'll figure something out.

May 29, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

Fred is done. Dissent is crushed.

Collectivists, you can now speak freely.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 3:26:42 PM

Fred is done. Dissent is crushed.

Right. Fred tries to intimidate someone by reporting them to the FBI but Ezra is the one who's "crushing dissent." If fact, Fred tried to intimidate everyone on the thread by claiming that if they didn't denounce the poster in question they were complicit.

Come back when you have something intelligent to say.

Posted by: W.B. Reeves | May 29, 2007 3:35:54 PM

I didn't ask or complain in any way. Fred is Ezra's decision, and I am not even going to comment on it.
Mr Reeves took me to task on phrasing, and specific targets or actual exhortations to violence were not there, nor intended, save in a "Death to Capitalism!" sense.

I doubt that it will happen, but you cannot imagine my excitement on getting a feeble knock. On the one hand, my secret identity will be blown, but I will be all over the net, maybe get on Ophrah, a book deal, a chance on American Idol...I can barely contain myself.

I am not getting a haircut.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 3:50:23 PM

Could someone post a link to the comment thread so we can all see the drama? It seems strange to me that such a dramatic moment would happen on this particular blog, and I'd like to see it.

Posted by: NonyNony | May 29, 2007 3:59:32 PM

Fred's been banned. Where have I heard that before?

Posted by: nolo | May 29, 2007 4:05:15 PM

Wait a second, Jones turned in Bob to the FBI? That's spectacular. I bet some poor sap at the FBI now has to devote himself to googling and reading all of Bob's comments.

Bob --

You should totally address your presumed FBI stalker at intervals; preferably while saying really inflammatory stuff.

Posted by: LizardBreath | May 29, 2007 4:09:11 PM

Ask and ye shall receive.

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/unlearning_help.html

Posted by: W.B. Reeves | May 29, 2007 4:11:04 PM

I stopped reading Pandagon a while back, his trolling annoyed me so.

Posted by: sangfroid826 | May 29, 2007 4:14:40 PM

Bob, although you seem to be cut from the Huffington Post cloth, you also seem to fit in well here at young collectivist Klein's blog. I'll be sure to inform my readers of your revealing rant. What fun.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 4:18:33 PM

Bob, congrats. That is pretty awesome.

Give it a while and then FOIA your FBI file, just for kicks.

Posted by: Sifu Tweety | May 29, 2007 4:19:08 PM

wow!

that's quite hilarious/disturbing.

Posted by: Korha | May 29, 2007 4:26:31 PM

Bob, although you seem to be cut from the Huffington Post cloth, you also seem to fit in well here at young collectivist Klein's blog. I'll be sure to inform my readers of your revealing rant. What fun.

It seems you like to play intimidation games as well, young master Browning.

Posted by: W.B. Reeves | May 29, 2007 4:30:51 PM

Wait, you mean someone hasn't reported bob to the FBI already? I could be wrong, but wasn't he, you know, a hippie?

Posted by: SEK | May 29, 2007 4:32:25 PM

Oh thank god, I thought it might be me. :)

Just for the record, I will miss Fred. But not that much.

Posted by: weboy | May 29, 2007 4:34:43 PM

Go Bob!

Posted by: Jackmormon | May 29, 2007 4:38:21 PM

Man, and I actually spent five minutes the other day responding to a comment by that Stasi troll. Boy do I feel stupid!

Posted by: josephdietrich | May 29, 2007 4:41:44 PM

Did the FBI actually come in with a warrant and/or subpoena and take the IP address records?

If so, I would think that fairness would require the site proprietor to forward to Bob the IP address records for Fred in case Bob should desire to file a complaint and/or lawsuit alleging a conspiracy to violate First Amendment rights.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer | May 29, 2007 4:42:35 PM

By the way - that's quite a thread there. I'm kinda glad I passed that thread by...

Posted by: weboy | May 29, 2007 4:44:04 PM

I've passed on some excerpts from Mr. MacManus' rant to Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs.

You may have alot of company here soon boys.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 4:45:16 PM

The FBI is the least of your problems, Bob! Browning's got a jazz guitarist on the case!

Posted by: Sifu Tweety | May 29, 2007 4:50:41 PM

You may have alot of company here soon boys.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm trembling in my boots.

Interesting how young master Browning, the wannabe right wing Michael Moore, denounces everyone here as "collectivist". Evidently, his definition of collectivist doesn't extend to informers for the state's political police aparatus. Neither does it prevent him from engaging in the cyber equivilant of mob incitement.

Such a sterling example of individualist integrity.

Posted by: W.B. Reeves | May 29, 2007 4:56:44 PM

I've passed on some excerpts from Mr. MacManus' rant to Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs.

You may have alot of company here soon boys.

Posted by: Stuart Browning

LOL. I don't know if this apparent allergy to self-awareness is a spoof, but I hope not.

A propos of nothing, the American people support the war in Iraq, Bush keeps telling us!

Posted by: Cyrus | May 29, 2007 4:57:53 PM

Stuart Browning has been associated with Paula Abdul, Angelina Jolie, and Vanna White, so he's a man to be feared. He puts out reliable winger agitprop on health care too.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 5:13:55 PM

Stuart Browning has been associated with Paula Abdul, Angelina Jolie, and Vanna White, so he's a man to be feared.

He puts out reliable winger agitprop on health care too.
He seems to work mostly for the Association of Health Underwriters.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 5:15:46 PM

As a reminder, Fred is the person who published my home and work information, harassed my employers, and left hints of violence against me and my home in the comments at Pandagon.

Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | May 29, 2007 5:21:43 PM

Gosh - maybe I have more to worry about than parking-lot-Bob.

John Emerson knows things about me that even I didn't know!

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 5:23:15 PM

so when I said Fred is crazy- you mean I was right? wow shocker

Posted by: akaison | May 29, 2007 5:24:26 PM

Bob, have you been contacted by the FBI?

Ezra, have you or your service provider been contacted by the FBI to obtain info on Bob?

Oh, and can you please ban Stuart Browning as well, Ezra? (threat makers should not be tolerated).

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | May 29, 2007 5:26:49 PM

Good riddance to him.

Posted by: fiat lux | May 29, 2007 5:27:11 PM

Ooooh! Ooooh! Ooooh! Report me, too! Report me, too!

Posted by: NCProsecutor | May 29, 2007 5:27:16 PM

This is Ezra's house, and I think he does an excellent job running it: this isn't a complaint about his decision here. But I don't think Fred reported the comments (assuming he really did) because they were anti-American or critical of America. Fred has never spoken of reporting any anti-American comments, as far as we know, and there have been many here. This was something else entirely. Here is the comment Fred quoted from bob:

Most of my life, I have hated my country every day, and would turn it into a parking lot without hesitation.

That's a statement of willingness to do massive violence to the country. I doubt Fred was right that this isn't protected free speech (like falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater). Seems there has to be a clear and present danger, or some such thing. But it is the kind of thing the we're encouraged to take seriously these days, and perhaps not without reason. Fred thought it sounded like Timothy McVeigh. I rather think Fred misunderstands the law and reporting guidelines, and probably bob, and harbors some confusion about what patriotism calls for. But it was about a statement of willingness to commit mass violence, not a criticism.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 5:37:07 PM

"Bob, have you been contacted by the FBI?"

Believe me, if I am not in some Hannibal Lector leather suit in the belly of a private jet on my way to some mysterious location, y'all will be the first to know. As in suits show at my door, I ask:"Can y'all wait just a second?"

With my luck, they will be LDS.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 5:39:14 PM

yeah, it's funny.

If you know bob (from here, unfogged, obwi, elsewhere) then you know this is just how he goes on. kinda loveable, in a way. certainly nothing to worry about.

but fred freaked, either because he doesn't know bob, or because he does but thought he could score points. (I mean, it's really the ultimate troll, right? disrupting the dialogue by calling in the feds?)

anyhow, bob--my favorite line of yours in the whole exchange--and you got off a lot of doozies--is where you talk about hiding three trillion tons of asphalt in your safe house. diabolically clever!

fred always was a complete time-waster, and i'm glad he's gone. let's hope he is not replaced by some new fred, the way that the al's seem to keep regenerating at matt's place.

Posted by: thag | May 29, 2007 5:40:59 PM

amanda--sorry, i hadn't known that about fred.

I always thought he was an immature prick, hopelessly lost in right-wing propaganda and unable to argue himself out of a paper bag, but i hadn't known that he had already tried to initiate off-screen actions against a blogger.

that makes him scum of a lower order than i had realized.

Posted by: thag | May 29, 2007 5:44:24 PM

Why is Browning tolerated, by the way? Why was Fred ever tolerated? Free discussion doesn't required talking to every jerk with a chip on his shoulder who happens to wander by. I don't see how Browning could ever contribute anything, based on his site and his three comments here. Certainly nothing worth paying the price of reading the run of his stuff.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 5:45:18 PM

Good riddance, but jesus Bob, that's a strong statement.

The POV that America has not been a force for good in your world is defensible, but is there anything justifying the escalation of rhetoric to Krauthammer/Reynolds calls for more rubble/less trouble?

I think that you are over the line both morally and tactically on this one.

(Sad that it has to be said, but none of the above should be construed as my questioning or doubting Bob's right to say what he said in the first place.)

Posted by: Pooh | May 29, 2007 5:48:09 PM

I enjoyed Fred's comments and I'll miss him. Sure, he was a touch over the top, but he was a good counterbalance.

Posted by: DM | May 29, 2007 5:50:06 PM

Most of my life, I have hated my country every day, and would turn it into a parking lot without hesitation.

That's a statement of willingness to do massive violence to the country.

Sanpete -- that is NOT a statement of willingness to do massive violence, which would be something along the lines of I would like to bomb my country back to the stone age or see shock and awe applied at home. Unless of course you consider property damage to be violence. parking lots take considerable time to make and even the slowest people can generally get out of the way or perhaps the bulldozer would stop while people moved. It is petulant statement of probably ill-considered malice, but then as GWB and his VP prove every day, this isn't against the law.

Posted by: BillCross | May 29, 2007 5:50:25 PM

"Most of my life, I have hated my country every day, and would turn it into a parking lot without hesitation."

Do I have to defend this, or at least the second half, with any level of seriousness? The albedo problems alone would be an offense to my environmentalism.

In an earlier thread I discussed tax incentives to encourage professionals to emigrate from the US, though I framed it in terms of subsidizing 3rd world development.

There is that old LBJ story. I am not going to clarify the statement, in order that certain words, phrases, concepts are not posted under my name, even in denial.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 5:53:35 PM

"that is NOT a statement of willingness to do massive violence"

right--i mean, it could instead be construed as a statement of infinite artisanal respect for the beauty that is a good parking lot.

um, um--fresh yellow lines. That smooth, smooth surface. What country wouldn't look better paved? What true patriot wouldn't want their own country to look so spruce and clean?

Posted by: thag | May 29, 2007 5:54:11 PM

As a reminder, Fred is the person who published my home and work information, harassed my employers, and left hints of violence against me and my home in the comments at Pandagon.

Fred also routinely made sexually degrading comments to women commenters in general. Not as bad as what you went through, Amanda, but you get the drift.

Posted by: nolo | May 29, 2007 5:55:01 PM

Bill, your reading of "turn it into a parking lot" is a wee bit too literal.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 5:55:32 PM

John Emerson - you seem to want to censor me here because you do not like the viewpoints presented in my movies and at my website. If I add some commentary there about hating my country and wanting to turn it into a parking lot, will you like me better and cease your attempts to censor me?

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 6:00:42 PM

Not caring what you have to say is not the same as censorship. Sorry.

Posted by: nolo | May 29, 2007 6:02:16 PM

John - I think Fred was tolerated because, as we do in this country, we tolerate dissent.

Amanda - I too did not know of his actions regarding you and your site. I'm sorry.

Sanpete - I appreciate you're trying to find something reasonable in fred's interpretation, but it seems that our being encouraged to report "this sort of thing" is precisely the problem with these fear-mongering times. In the context of that discussion - and knowing bob, which fred surely did - bob's statement strikes me as calculated outrageousness (I have an uncle who argues this way; love him, but it's a pain - I still love you bob, too), and not the kind of "imminent threat" we really ought to be on the lookout for (and which, really, most of us will not likely encounter).

That said, I'm less concerned by what Bob said than I am by Ezra's "remember this is for public consumption" - that too, strikes me as stifling fresh expression. I say what I say; if someone finds it worth "reporting to the authorities" I say bring it on; I'll take that challenge.

Posted by: weboy | May 29, 2007 6:02:41 PM

I think the point was it was hyprbole and a joke unless bob really does want to move professionals abroad?

Posted by: akaison | May 29, 2007 6:05:59 PM

Weboy, you aren't really disagreeing with me. As I said, I think Fred got it wrong in several ways. The point is that his action wasn't about stifling criticism of America.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 6:14:52 PM

"unless bob really does want to move professionals abroad?"

I think the underdeveloped world would be well-served by the addition of many experienced doctors and engineers and accountants, not as colonialists or serving hegemony, but as people with a stake in the good governance and independence of their newly adopted lands.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 6:17:40 PM

All those minutes of billable time I've wasted arguing with Fred. Gone, gone in a heartbeat. The world is so cruel sometimes.

You know he's just going to plague Yglesias.

Posted by: Klein's Tiny Left Nut | May 29, 2007 6:18:29 PM

Posted by: weboy

I was a bit ambivalent about Ezra's post too (On the one hand, this is what get Fred banned? But on the other hand, why not let him be himself so everyone can see?), but in the end, Ezra's point number two is noncontroversial. A command like "Don't say anything that you think could get you in trouble," might look kind of threatening, but really, seems to be little more than a truism ("... because it's just not generally a wise decision in a public forum.")

Posted by: Cyrus | May 29, 2007 6:22:53 PM

Sanpete, if there were any plausible way that McManus could turn the U.S. into a parking lot, then I *might* entertain your reading of his comment.

For that matter, however, America seems to be turning itself into a parking lot on its own, without any help from us moonbats. Cf. Joni Mitchell.

Posted by: Anderson | May 29, 2007 6:27:21 PM

I'd be glad that we at least have Stuart to troll us, if his insults were original.

Anyway, that Fred tried to get bob in trouble with the FBI is yet another example of how white males in this country have decided that our various police forces exist for the purpose of addressing their whims and minor annoyances.

Wah wah wah.

Posted by: Stephen | May 29, 2007 6:29:57 PM

if there were any plausible way that McManus could turn the U.S. into a parking lot, then I *might* entertain your reading of his comment

What reading is that? The words mean what they mean on a plain sense level, which I gave the obvious meaning of, and then they have another meaning on another level, You appear to be talking about whether he was serious, which goes to the latter meaning.

Cf. Joni Mitchell.

I think you mean Bob Dylan, or Robert Zimmerman, which someone here once said was Fred's real name (something I seriously doubt), or at least another alias. Synchronicity!

white males

Huh?

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 6:42:08 PM

I have the same question as John Emerson. What did the trolls like Fred and Stuart ever add that warrants putting up with them?

With Bob, you could strip out everything he ever posts except the bibliographic cites and direct quotes and still have a valuable education in alternative perspectives on a bunch of important issues, and a guide to neglected political history. And he does add a lot of valuable stuff on top of that. No matter how much he may sometimes drive me up the wall, there's clearly honest thought and effort there - a lot of it.

But the right-wing trolls?

Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 29, 2007 6:43:42 PM

I think you mean Bob Dylan, or Robert Zimmerman, which someone here once said was Fred's real name (something I seriously doubt), or at least another alias.

Fred used to go by "Robert Zimmerman" when Amanda started blogging at Pandagon. Some of you may find this hard to believe, but he was much, much creepier and disruptive over there.

Posted by: Constantine | May 29, 2007 6:49:02 PM

"I think you mean Bob Dylan"

From memory, "Big Yellow Taxi" Ladies of the Canyon

Memory fails me

Until its gone, you don't know what you got (yecchh)

They took paradise,
Made it a parking lot.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 6:51:54 PM

Do I have to defend this, or at least the second half, with any level of seriousness? The albedo problems alone would be an offense to my environmentalism.

No. It's obvious hyperbole to anyone even remotely familiar with you're oeuvre. That doesn't mean that it's the kind of hyperbole which you should use. It tends to obscure your underlying point, to say the least.

I also agree with Cyrus that it seems surprising that this is what got Fred banned. Not that it wasn't a bannable offense per se, just that it seems almost tame in comparison to some of the other garbage he spewed.

Posted by: Pooh | May 29, 2007 6:53:00 PM

The Real Lyrics

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 6:56:21 PM

Dear Pooh - what was the differentiation from Bob's "garbage"?

Let's review Bob's commentary:

Most of my life, I have hated my country every day, and would turn it into a parking lot without hesitation.

I want revolution. Revolution starts with rage and alienation. Partial alienation is just tribalism and reinforces the system. Alienation. Recognizing it, accepting it, expressing it.

With a 3-wood or a blog comment.

Charming.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 6:57:42 PM

Pooh, I think there's a clear difference between spewing garbage online and taking action to cause (possibly serious) problems for opponents in their non-online lives. Now, if Fred only said he was contacting the FBI, but didn't actually do it, you might have a point.

Posted by: KCinDC | May 29, 2007 6:58:32 PM

After reviewing the other thread, I'd just like to add that I'd pay good money to see Bob doing Extreme Kant Interpretation, which I presume involves snowboards and burning temples to mammon and war.

Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 29, 2007 6:59:49 PM

What Fred and Toke added (Stuart hardly ever posts here) was some other point of view, one represented by a fair chunk of the population. Nothing more tedious than a bunch of people who agree with each other agreeing with each other. It's too bad there aren't more conservatives that post here. It's 90% liberals, 9% libertarians, including a few with some conservative leanings they don't talk much about, and 1% radicals. There will probably be less discussion here now.

Yeah, it's true, Mitchell wrote and sang "Big Yellow Taxi," but Dylan also recorded it (I thought it was the other way round), which is the important thing. No synchronicity with Mitchell, you see.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 7:06:38 PM

Sanpete, here I go trying to stir up controversy and... nothing. :)

Posted by: weboy | May 29, 2007 7:07:20 PM

From: Stuart Browning
Subject: Death Threats to America & an FBI tip at Ezra Klein's Blog
Date: May 29, 2007 7:03:58 PM EDT
To: writemalkin@gmail.com

Michelle,

You might find it interesting that a commentator at the blog of Ezra Klein (of The American Prospect) had the following to say: (http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/unlearning_help.html)

Most of my life, I have hated my country every day, and would turn it into a parking lot without hesitation.

I want revolution. Revolution starts with rage and alienation. Partial alienation is just tribalism and reinforces the system. Alienation. Recognizing it, accepting it, expressing it.

With a 3-wood or a blog comment.

When another commentator went to the FBI, he was banned from the blog!

See Ezra Klein's comments here:

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/psa.html#comment-71030394

Best Regards,
Stuart

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 7:07:40 PM

Sanpete, not all viewpoints are equall worthwhile. What sign was there ever that people like Stuart and Fred are posting with the slightest scrap of honesty? Do they admit errors? Do they apologize for misreadings, and do they read with any care? Do they take any caution in applying labels to others and then attacking them for what other people they've labeled the same way may (or may not) have said? Do they ever show the slightest interest in facts when the facts may make problems for their dogmas of the moment, or acknowledge how and why their dogmas change?

Not as far as I can see. They post provocatively and completely dishonestly.

Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 29, 2007 7:12:13 PM

Still trying to stir the mighty hordes, Stuart?

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 7:13:33 PM

Browning, you should have quoted the whole thing. That is the 2nd reference to "3-wood" and I can't remember the first myself. Could have been very bad. And I am not revisiting that thread.

As far as the first paragraph:

"I have discovered that all human evil comes from this, man's being unable to sit still in a room."

Blaise Pascal
French mathematician, physicist (1623 - 1662)

Should, like, be the blogger motto maybe.

I shouldn't be playing this game today. Its silly.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 7:13:34 PM

Pooh, I think there's a clear difference between spewing garbage online and taking action to cause (possibly serious) problems for opponents in their non-online lives. Now, if Fred only said he was contacting the FBI, but didn't actually do it, you might have a point.

A fair point, though Bob's statement was extreme enough that Fred was only 'completely off-base' rather than 'wildly and inappropriately off-base' as he tended to be on certain topics (e.g. misogyny, as discussed above, as well as a certain degree of xenophobia towards, well most of the rest of us). Were I either a more charitable person or less familiar with the works of Fred, I might suggest that he had a good faith, though erroneous, basis for suspecting that Bob's statements amounted to criminality.

Posted by: Pooh | May 29, 2007 7:17:28 PM

What I love is that Stuart apparently lacks the wherewithal to create the LGF invasion that he threatens. He's trying so hard, and yet even the violent moron brigade won't listen to him.

Posted by: DivGuy | May 29, 2007 7:19:15 PM

fred reported us to the FBI, and you report us to Malkin?

nice illustration of history repeating itself as farce.

and thanks for showing us what "lame" and "pathetic" look like, stuart.

"waah, those bad boys said bad words, so I'm telling mommy!!!"

Posted by: thag | May 29, 2007 7:20:14 PM

Do they admit errors? Do they apologize for misreadings, and do they read with any care? Do they take any caution in applying labels to others and then attacking them for what other people they've labeled the same way may (or may not) have said? Do they ever show the slightest interest in facts when the facts may make problems for their dogmas of the moment, or acknowledge how and why their dogmas change?

This can be asked of many. Fred wasn't worse than some others here, just more noticeable and annoying to many for standing against the tide.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 29, 2007 7:20:33 PM

Sanpete, does Stuart's effort to get Malkin to send her flying monkeys here also represent an attempt to provide us with valuable insight into a different viewpoint?

Posted by: KCinDC | May 29, 2007 7:22:23 PM

I also think that Bob is one of very, very few people posting in the blogosphere who's making any serious effort to deal with what the war says about us as a nation. There's him, IOZ and Arthur Silber on the libertarian side, and I can think of very few others willing to fully acknowledge the facts of what we've done to Iraq and assess it the way we would any other nation's actions. The fact is that we are not a nation of nice people. To the extent that we were in 2000, and there were reasons to think poorly of our niceness then, we have become much less nice. In fact we've become by far the greatest menace to world peace in practical terms, willing and able to lash out at any innocent target if it's handy and equally willing and able to excuse and prop up any evil if it's convenient. This nation gets to torture its subjects and poison its land and water, and it's cool; that nation is doomed to a generation of murderous chaos because we don't like the look of its hats. Somewhere along the line here, "Well, I don't vote for those guys" stops being an entirely sufficient excuse, and the innocent dead and suffering are entitled to demand, "But what did you do to stop them?"

I lack some of Bob's vision, or at least his...Bob, would be appropriate to say your hope of being confident in it? But anyone who doesn't sometimes stop to think of the million dead, the millions fleeing, the country ruined, the good people subjected to the brutal tyranny of the bad, and think my hands are bloody too, I don't get to be a purely nice person anymore is simply out of tune with basic realities.

Posted by: Bruce Baugh | May 29, 2007 7:24:47 PM

What Bruce said. Deeply uncomfortable with the truth of it, but there it is.

Posted by: Bloodyhands McBloodyson | May 29, 2007 7:31:55 PM

Its hard to say which is more embarassing. Complaining to the FBI about bob or to Malkin about Ezra!?

The reason Fred's action seems especially uncharitable is because he wouldn't want the same standard applied to himself. When it kinda was, can he complain? On the other hand, what justifies accusing Fred of being a dishonest worthless poster and rating bob a good one?

Posted by: slickdpdx | May 29, 2007 7:34:07 PM

The fact is that we are not a nation of nice people.

We aren't a nation of mean people either. We're just a nation that by and large doesn't care. Which doesn't make us that different from any other people, but we've managed to combined great indifference with great power and put people who lack the Spider-Man mandated great responsibility in charge.

Posted by: Pooh | May 29, 2007 7:35:12 PM

John Emerson - you seem to want to censor me here because you do not like the viewpoints presented in my movies and at my website.....Posted by: Stuart Browning

John - I think Fred was tolerated because, as we do in this country, we tolerate dissent.... Posted by: weboy | May 29, 2007 6:02:41 PM

Quit whining, guys. Nobody in a free country has any obligation to listen to anyone else's bullshit. You guys sound like morons.

Browning, I've heard your point of view (on your website) plenty of times before. There's no real demand for it on may part. As for your posts here, does calling people "collectivists" count as rational discourse in your mind? Because it isn't, it's hackish namecalling, and your did it twice in four short, content-free posts.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 8:00:19 PM

Closed.

Posted by: Pooh | May 29, 2007 8:04:08 PM

/italics after "PM".

OK, Ezra is toleratant, LGF and Malkin aren't, and now Ezra's friend Browning sends the LGF and Malkin trolls over here. A lot of good tolerance does.

Intelligent debate is possible on the itnernet, but not on an unmoderated website, especially if trolls are being actively recruited.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 8:05:24 PM

John Emerson - Thanks for being a regular reader of my website. The audience for my movies on the dangers of collectivized medicine (both at my site and on YouTube) is indeed growing.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 8:08:34 PM

No, Stuart, I've been hearing the same bullshit that you pump out for decades, from others than you. No surprises on your site. Three minutes was enough.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 8:14:40 PM

"the dangers of collectivized medicine"??

oh, so that's your schtick.

fair enough--at least now we know where you get your funding from.

Posted by: thag | May 29, 2007 8:17:46 PM

... and where is that, thag?

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 29, 2007 8:18:32 PM

Well, eight speaking appearances in a year for Associations of Health Underwriters is one clue. Though possibly that's for free, and you're self-financing everything from your dot-com wealth.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 29, 2007 8:22:06 PM

I thought mcmanus' statements were pretty extremely idiotic, but one of the things I like about America & the post-Enlightenment West is that we tolerate idiots, too. But Fred Jones' response is simply hilarious. This is about as open a platform as you could want -- not really the best place for plotting violent insurrection. Guys who spout off like mcmanus are the least of any security apparatchik's worries -- which probably pisses of mcmanus, too. A pox on both of them.

Posted by: sglover | May 29, 2007 8:23:40 PM

"Bob, would be appropriate to say your hope of being confident in it[my vision]?"

By me. I liked the rest of the comment tho.

I know you didn't mean when the world goes up in flames I will be jumping up-and-down saying:"See! I told ya."

But I am pretty confidant that America is going to keep killing people overseas, at something like a 1000-1 ratio, and probably accelerating. I don't see any painless way to stop it.

I hope I am wrong.

Posted by: bob mcmanus | May 29, 2007 8:24:55 PM

bob...

it looks like you are having a pretty good day today!
this feels like a little neighborhood...
the neighbors are out talking about the latest excitement on the street.
not since the sprezzatura affair has there been so much excitement.
people out of their houses and mulling about...
....like the groups that form in lively and concerned discussion after a robbery on the block, and the police have left.
everyone gathering, giving support to the victimized neighbor, comments of concern, curiosity and neighborliness....
and talk of watchfulness for any marauders that might come back to create further disturbance on the street.
fred's living room window is noticeably dark...
a lingering group by bob's front lawn, leaning under a tree....
an early evening in may.....
only the neighborhood is in this little box.

Posted by: jacqueline | May 29, 2007 8:46:05 PM

I don't get how using the FBI for inappropriate purposes isn't more of problem for some of you than a guy deciding who he wants on a blog. In the hierarchy of important powers- I would say the FBI threat is a more major concern. And how exactly do some of you function in the real world with out context playing a major role? Honestly, if you didn't know that Bob tends toward exageration- that would be one thing- but to even argue this knowing full well that he does it just bizzare. It's like context doesn't matter to your arguments all. There is a difference between free debate and coercion.

Here's the thing- and this is what I find fascinating. When Captain Toke was banned for racial things he said about me I believe- my feelings were that he shouldn't be banned. That whatever offensive thing he said it added because it forced us to realize folks like Capt Toke exists and in what ways they exist. They don't add much in terms of actual argument, but they do force us to confront the face of extremism.

However, there is a big difference between disagreement verbally, and taking it offline to then use the police power of the state to enforce one's beliefs on others. That's the line Fred crossed. Or to put it crassly, I can stand being called a "nigger" a lore more than I can being hounded by the govt. It's especially ironic, by the way, that he would use the govt since he, Fred, didn't seem to like it all that much.

Posted by: akaison | May 29, 2007 9:24:02 PM

PS-

Regarding Capt Toke. Some of you who are now arguing for Fred along this thread, argued against Capt Fred. I guess you don't remember day to day what you write, but I have a pretty good memory. Like I said above, I have no idea why Capt Toke who committed a lesser offense - it was okay to ban- but Fred who commmitted what amounts to harassment- no matter how good natured Bob is about it- is somehow less of an offense.

Posted by: akaison | May 29, 2007 9:27:01 PM

Why is bob still around? I mean, where is the tar? Where are the feathers? He should be slathered, fuzzy and screaming by now. I'm so disappointed in this "Stuart Browning" fellow ... and in you folks for ignoring the pun-potential of his surname.

If he's going to support a childish tattler, there's no reason we ought to hold the high ground.

Posted by: SEK | May 29, 2007 10:03:37 PM

Oh there's a reason to hold the high ground with a fellow named Browning around.

Posted by: Klein's tiny left nut | May 29, 2007 10:42:13 PM

You know, for a while I just couldn't get on board with EzraKleintypepad.com. My younger policy wonk friends dig the site, but it all seemed so two-dimensional: health, labor, health, labor, health, (smatterings of pop) health, health, health.

But this thread is great.
FBI involvement!
Excommunication!
Tar!
Feathers!

I take it all back, Ezra.

Posted by: sangfroid826 | May 29, 2007 10:47:37 PM

Can you imagine if all the virulent hate in right/"free speech" sociopath blogistan was reported to the FBI? Just think about that stream of bile and threats that Shakes got after her post on the creepy satellite duo. Calling routinely for the extermination of and discrimination against Muslims is just as Anti-American, if not more so, than a parking lot reference.

Posted by: idabw | May 30, 2007 12:07:34 AM

Before I read Amanda's comments, I was going to speak up for Fred. He was a jerk, but he was fun to make fun of. Plus, the threat to turn Bob into the FBI was something I didn't think should be taken too seriously. This is the FBI we are talking about. The agency that is still working on that suspicious information about this Saudi guy taking airplane piloting lessons without the landing part in Arizona. The agency that can't find a domestic anthrax sender, as if the pool of suspects isn't pretty self-selectingly small. If Bob had been turned into the working part of the government - say Fred decided to really harass Bob by by sending his name, address, and assurance that he was a graduate of Liberty College law school to the Justice department - now that would be
harassment. The job offers day and night. The earnest blondie men and women coming to the door in their missionary suits. The pep talks. The jokes about being next to the big guy - Cheney of course. The hushed tones about God's mission for America. The offers to pray with Bob. The autographed pictures of POTUS. Of Jesus. Of Jesus and POTUS. This, this would drive Bob crazy.

But Fred's a stalker, too. Damn. Not just a crackpot but a stinker.

However, it looks like Stuart Browning is going to try to fill Fred's shoes. Those are mighty big shoes, though. Bozo size - what are they, 35s?

Posted by: roger | May 30, 2007 12:17:19 AM

Sanpete, does Stuart's effort to get Malkin to send her flying monkeys here also represent an attempt to provide us with valuable insight into a different viewpoint?

No.

Posted by: Sanpete | May 30, 2007 1:16:30 AM

Look, I came all the way to this thread -- clicking on one whole link, I know! -- to see a really good hanging, or at least a really good trolling, and this is what I get? Unbelievable. If all you can offer is this Browning schmuck, reeking of ruggedly individualistic impotence, I'm just going to have to take my toys and go home.

[A whole 'nother keystroke! I know!]

Alas, alack. I'm disappointed Ezra. Disappointed.

Posted by: Anarch | May 30, 2007 3:01:32 AM

But I am pretty confidant that America is going to keep killing people overseas, at something like a 1000-1 ratio, and probably accelerating. I don't see any painless way to stop it.

Oh, I think that ratio will change. And speaking as someone outside the US, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea if the US has to face a hundred thousand civilian casualties the next time it decides to go and wipe out half a million wogs.

Posted by: Phoenician in a time of Romans | May 30, 2007 3:09:13 AM

fred also posted as the roads scholar. he started sending me email insulting me and threatening me. he started off fairly sane and then started the insults because I didn't agree with anything he said. keef is what he called himself. he used to troll orcinus also. he enjoyed calling people fags just like all closet cases do.

Posted by: merlallen | May 30, 2007 7:55:35 AM

The "I'm going to tell Charles Johnson and Michelle Malkin" bit might just be the funniest thing that's ever appeared on Ezra's site. Tell me little Stuart, have you heard back from them yet?

Posted by: apostropher | May 30, 2007 9:14:34 AM

The FBI may not be good at its job, but they can make a guy's life a living hell if they want to. I don't know McManus's situation but your life can be impacted negatively if the FBI talks to your boss, family, and neighbors, and with the Patriot Act they have a lot of prosecution options.

Posted by: John Emerson | May 30, 2007 9:30:32 AM

... and McManus deserves the scrutiny.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 30, 2007 9:31:39 AM

stuart little shows how closely he is following the Bush playbook: devote endless paranoid scrutiny to things that are clearly no threat at all while turning a blind eye to the well-marked threats.

Look, if you really are feeling all fearful and tearful at the rantings of a crotchety duffer who likes to amuse his friends on the web, then you are a sorry case.

McManus is a blog-commenter: sometimes funny, sometimes insightful, sometimes good for citations and historical references. He always, always stakes out a goofy extreme position in any debate because...who knows, that's what we have come to expect from him.

He is no more a threat to national security than your favorite cranky uncle.

Meanwhile--have you made sure to report the anti-abortion fanatics to the FBI? Now we are talking real terrorists: assassinations and bombings have already been carried out.

Have you reported to the FBI the fact that the ports and chemical facilities in this country are still unsecured? Have you reported to the FBI the fact that loose nukes have been allowed to float around the former USSR, when a fraction of the money we are wasting in Iraq could have hoovered them up off the black market?

No, you probably haven't. Because you don't have any idea what a real threat looks, or what really deserves scrutiny.

please--if you're going to keep browning your undies in misplaced fear, do it somewhere else.

Posted by: thag | May 30, 2007 9:45:11 AM

at least now we know where you get your funding from

thag - we're still waiting for you to tell us.

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 30, 2007 9:50:27 AM

You know, I've gotten into some stupid arguments with Bob in the past, but after reading this thread and the last one my respect for him has tripled.

Posted by: Christmas | May 30, 2007 10:32:11 AM

I think, Stuart, you aren't thinking big enough. Oh, sure, McManus deserves the scrutiny, which is why you are on the case. I'm confident that you are out there spying right now on this fearsome asphalt contracting terrorist. Is he stocking up on that special yellow paint they use in parking lot work? My God, the time schedule on this thing looks close. And then, of course, there's the purchase of the 4,000 Bomag Tandem Asphalt Rollers. But Stuart - can McManus be working alone? That's the question that should keep you sweating in your bed at night. Experts estimate that one man trying to lay down a parking lot over the continental U.S. would probably have to spend 3-5 billion manhours working at it. Plus he'd have to work on Thanksgiving. And the easements! This is a clue - as you will find in your John D'oh Handbook of supersubversives and how to utterly wipe them off the face of the earth, p. 21 - that there is probably a gang involved. I think you and your operatives should spread out. Go to asphalt tandem roller dealerships. Under cover - p. 32 in your book has handy tips on how to dress like a normal guy and strike up conversations - you might ask about any unusual happenings in the asphalt biz. A good leading question is, - I was wondering, how does a guy contact, like, 30,000 Saudi Asphalt workers if he has a big project?

Now, the big difficulty for a guy like you, hardworking, virtuous, the kind of guy who likes to relax with a little Christian entertainment before you and your wife and kids pray and go to bed, is to penetrate the truly evil imagination of people like MacManus. That's why you can't just think, asphalt-parking lot. The guy might be a concrete fetishist. That's right, one of those characters. Appendix b, Moonbat freaks and fetishists : adults only! has some tasteful pics of Michelle herself and some of the John D'oh squad suited up to show how certain of these so called swingin' life style perverts get their kicks. Fred Jones, who you are replacing, had studied these pages in his book, uh, perhaps a bit too much... Don't get sucked in!
We will all be rooting for you. Do report in your findings. We are all in this together because ... we are all John D'oh!

Posted by: roger | May 30, 2007 1:23:20 PM

Roger, that cracked me up. I love infrastructure humor.

Posted by: Megan | May 30, 2007 2:05:04 PM

Megan, you should see my imitation of a cast iron sewage pipe with lamellar graphite and a 2.5' mouth trying to hail a taxi in the Bronx! I'm down at the Motor Court Lounge, Fridays and Saturdays, before the American Legion Barry Manilow karoake contest.

Posted by: roger | May 30, 2007 2:55:51 PM

it was funny, roger, very funny indeed.

but for sheer bust-a-gut funny, I'm not sure anyone has topped the very first comment above:

"Fred is done. Dissent is crushed."

Posted by: thag | May 30, 2007 3:22:10 PM

thag - still curious about how you know who funds me?

Posted by: Stuart Browning | May 30, 2007 4:43:11 PM

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