Ezra Klein: AFCSME

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March 09, 2007

AFCSME

This is the clearest distillation of the union ethos I've ever seen:

March 9, 2007 | Permalink

Comments

OMG that's funny! Is that an official union video? It is sooooo NYC. No weak knees there, for sure.

Maybe we are way overdue for some militant liberalism that doesn't take crap from the GOP abuse machine.

Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Mar 9, 2007 5:25:21 PM

So NYC except for the fake NY accent ;).

Obviously a voiceover job, but reasonably funny.

Posted by: sidereal | Mar 9, 2007 5:37:02 PM

From YouTube: "This is a rare gem. This was a PSA that the voice-over person decided to record an "alternate" version of for fun. This comes from the archives of a local tv station. You won't find this anywhere."

Posted by: Mary | Mar 9, 2007 5:57:03 PM

By this clip, none of these services would be done without the union. More likely, the same services would be done, but at a lower cost to the taxpayers.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 9, 2007 6:02:44 PM

I think I actually agree with Fred, at least factually. Though as a matter of economic policy high wages are a damn good thing.

Posted by: Korha | Mar 9, 2007 6:09:57 PM

Maybe by illegal immigrants Fred... but I guess that's a whole other can of worms... ;)

I'm afraid though that the video does sum up the Unions, and the image problem that drives a lot of anti-union bias... A very patrician "My goodness, they do swear a lot don't they, and they dopn't seem very well educated..." I'm not sure anyone's come up with a good answer for that.

Posted by: weboy | Mar 9, 2007 6:23:16 PM

Okay, it was a joke. But it was an awesome joke with the best slogan ever.

We F*ckin' Work For You!

Posted by: Chris Andersen | Mar 9, 2007 6:37:23 PM

AFCSME Local 88 right here. That's damn funny and harder than any advocacy I've seen out of my local.

Posted by: Roamsedge | Mar 9, 2007 7:47:06 PM

Oh man, painful. The title on the post is mixed and I copied it right down. AFSCME. Damn.

Posted by: Roamsedge | Mar 9, 2007 7:50:12 PM

More likely, the same services would be done, but at a lower cost to the taxpayers.

The "middle class" is a function of UNIONS. UNIONS are what made the US what it is today. If the union employees didn't get that extra pay, they wouldn't be able to buy Fred's delicious ice cream ( Fred drives an ice cream truck and is pissed because his benefits are crappy). Keep ringing those bells Fred!!!

Posted by: fasteddie | Mar 9, 2007 7:55:29 PM

Illegal aliens are natural scabs. They work for less. One would think that those who wish to force labor costs and workers' wages up would not want the cheap illegal work force undercutting their efforts.

How's that working for ya'?

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 9, 2007 8:55:11 PM

More likely, the same services would be done, but at a lower cost to the taxpayers.

Yes, I believe that is Wal-Mart's strategy, with their reputation for excellent service and low-turnover among their professional staff.

Posted by: Constantine | Mar 9, 2007 9:38:27 PM

Wal-Mart delivers what their customers want....

You deliver what the workers want at the expense of the customers, in this case, the taxpayers.

I guess one must decide *who* the business exists to serve, the workers or the customers.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 9, 2007 10:22:08 PM

Wal-Mart delivers what their customers want

sigh. Fred, Wal-Mart has a specific mission. The government has a specific mission. If you think that the government's mission is to deliver low-cost, low-quality merchandise with a low-rent, part time, high-turnover staff, then clearly you view the mission of the government much differently that the rest of us.

Posted by: Constantine | Mar 9, 2007 10:55:38 PM

Fred Jones Troll,
Most illegals--at least the illegals most people talk about--are Latinos. That means Roman Catholic. You don't get any more pro-union than Catholics. Try learning something about this America country you purport to live in.

Posted by: Joe S. | Mar 9, 2007 11:11:33 PM

So....without the Unions, we wouldn't have civil service employees?

Posted by: DRR | Mar 9, 2007 11:35:42 PM

Why do repubelicans hate collective bargaining?

Posted by: paid vacation | Mar 10, 2007 3:34:43 AM

Alomst every boring, passed through a pre-screening advertisement has a version like that sitting under guard in a vault at the ad agency. Creative people do know what is really going on and end up delivering what their customer thinks it wants. think that unions would be better off being in your face a little more. Heck, I know union members who no longer know what their union has done for them.
Funny stuff.

Posted by: Hawise | Mar 10, 2007 8:35:24 AM

Saturday morning should really mean hit preview first!

Walmart's mission appears to be to make China strong.

Posted by: Hawise | Mar 10, 2007 8:37:25 AM

If you think that the government's mission is to deliver low-cost, low-quality merchandise with a low-rent, part time, high-turnover staff, then clearly you view the mission of the government much differently that the rest of us.

The government's mission should be to deliver the quality of services needed to the taxpayers (customers) at the best possible price.

If you think interjecting a layer organization between then whose sole interest has nothing to do with serving the taxpayer will help the government achieve this goal, you are mistaken.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 10, 2007 9:16:45 AM

Why do repubelicans hate collective bargaining?

Fred: I think I'll start a company and produce widgets. I have a way to manufacture a quality widget at a lower price than my competitors. My investors have put up the money for this in hopes of a return.

Dean-0: The employees think they should be paid more than market for their skills.

Fred: Really? How do they justify the higher wages? Will they produce more for me?

Dean-0: No. They just want it.....and they want other concessions, too, such as flex-time and 3 week paid vacations for all newcomers with 5 weeks after 1 year. Also, you should throw in free medical and dental. And if you don't cave in, we will threaten strike and shut you down.

Fred: If you shut down my business, you will be out of jobs.

Dean-0: We don't have that much skin in this game. We can find other jobs and other employers to bully. You, on the other hand, will lose all of your investment and will not be able to start over. You in or out?

Fred: None of this seems fair.
You will cost more but will not produce more than other workers would. The competative edge that I thought I had with my new manufacturing techniques will be more than offset by this artificial wage increase and benefit increases over and above market, erasing my profitability and the reason for going into business in the first place.

Dean-0: Whatever, dude. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 10, 2007 9:34:25 AM

What if Fred The Capitalist told his employees he was cutting their wages? What if he told them they could only take 10 minute breaks instead of 15, or that their health plan no longer covered dental, or if they couldn't file an official complaint about workplace safety?

All of the above are exercises of power by management which have an exceedingly long history.

Fred's story above details a relatively analogous exercise of power by labor. (I would auggest, actually, far more justifiable, but this is beside the point.) Fred finds it unjustifiable. I assume he is perfectly happy with the exercise of power by management as outlined. Really, it has nothing to do with justice for Fred, it has to do with the maintenance of the already-existing structures of economic power.

Posted by: DivGuy | Mar 10, 2007 10:46:07 AM

Wells: I make widgets. I just invested in new technology, so now my workers can make more widgets per hour than my competitors' workers can. This is awesome, 'cause I make more money while providing my products at a better price. Capitalism rules.

Used to be that my extra profits from increased productivity filtered down to the workers, expanding the middle class and allowing one high-school educated man to support a family, own a home, and maybe put his kids through college. I didn't want to pay my workers much, but the unions, which gave us the 40 hour work week, the weekend, ended child labor, and created workplace safety rules, made me pay a decent middle-class wage.

Not anymore!

Productivity growth has always been faster than wage growth, but since the seventies and early eighties (when those meddlesome unions were finally defanged) real wages for male high school graduates are completely flat or slightly lower while productivity has grown by leaps and bounds.

This is awesome for me, 'cause I'm getting richer and richer while my workers pay stays the same. I make more money off of their labor (all I do is front the money and make a few decisions) while they lose their healthcare.

Posted by: Wells. | Mar 10, 2007 11:09:04 AM

What if he told them they could only take 10 minute breaks instead of 15...

And what is the market standard in this industry....10 or 15? Make a difference when deciding if this is fair or not.

...or that their health plan no longer covered dental, or if they couldn't file an official complaint about workplace safety?

Does your competition provide these services to their employees? Good question that you didn't mention.

It seems that those who argue for unions are trying to fit a square peg though a round hole. Businesses, by definition (and law), exist to benefit primarily the owners. However, you argue from the standpoint that they are there primarily to benefit the workers.
If you wish to have an entity that exists primarily for the benefit of the workers, then you should create one and you will not always be in conflict with the owners. maybe the government could own the businesses.

Oh! I forgot, it's been done.....it's called the communism.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 10, 2007 12:25:03 PM

Right. Between ruthless anarcho-capitalism and full-blown communism exist no useful, actually-existing alterative models of management-labor power balancing.

Come on. The government intercedes in labor relations all the damn time. The idea that intercessions on behalf of a more just balance of power are equivalent to communism is ludicrous, utterly ahistorical - unless you want to call the united states a communist pseudo-republic.

Posted by: DivGuy | Mar 10, 2007 12:35:18 PM

That's right: If you support unions, you're a communist.
That's for breaking that down, Fred.

Posted by: pants | Mar 10, 2007 12:36:19 PM

When the government intercedes, it usually does so on behalf of capital. (My father told me about a period of military law in New Castle, Indiana in the 50's. Go figure -- they were stopping all traffic into town to make sure there were no weapons being brought in.)

Fred, if you want to live in the Third World (and how easily you assume you'd be on top!) then you're certainly welcome to move to Argentina, where your free-market principles have demonstrated their power. But I don't see any reason to sacrifice America's remaining prosperity for your stupid notions.

The best places in the world to live are all socialist, Fred. Europe's standard of living is nothing you can imagine. The social support there is expensive -- roughly half everyone's income -- but not as expensive as our neglect of our health and our wars of choice in the Middle East. (And before you mention that our tax rate is lower, you're right. But they pay in advance instead of hoping their grandchildren will pay.)

Fred, your words show you're an idiot. You aren't smart enough to invent a widget, you've never gotten investment capital, and you've never dealt with labor. If you *had*, you would be doing something profitable instead of trying to convince people smarter than you that they should throw away America's benefits to support your odd religious notions.

So do yourself, and us, a favor. Just shut the fuck up and go preach to some choir somewhere.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 10, 2007 2:34:40 PM

The government intercedes in labor relations all the damn time.

Great. The government is also accountable to others who have a stake and not just the special interests of the workers alone. Pass laws, let them intervene if we all decide it's necessary. But to have a one-interest workers' union making these decisions doesn't quite seem as fair.

The best places in the world to live are all socialist, Fred. Europe's standard of living is nothing you can imagine. The social support there is expensive -- roughly half everyone's income...

Well, at least Michael's more honest than the rest. He snuggles up to Socialism quite nicely, thinks it's just peachy. What he doesn't realize is that even if he is correct in his assessment, the intangibles that people flock to this country for are missing. He just doesn't seem to value independence, tremendous economic opportunity, freedom of government interference, personal freedoms like freedom of speech (Try taking a non-approved public position about the holocost in Germany for instance), freedom of religion, the right to personal weapons for defense, etc.

None of these issues made the cut when Michael was explaining why he believes Old Europe and it's Socialist ways are superior to the US.

You're a bee, Michael, and you belong in a hive.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 10, 2007 4:51:45 PM

Fred,

Have you ever spent any time in a country where government workers are paid poverty-level wages? Corruption is rampant.

If you were a sewer worker who made $5/hr, would you rush off and put your nose to the grindstone just cause some pipes broke? Hell no, you'd expect a little something extra from the affected landowner before you started wading through people's shit.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason American cops aren't as dirty as Mexican ones is because the unions here make sure that cops get middle-class wages.

Public unions, by ensuring a middle-class life for public employees, reduce corruption. Without the unions, government workers would get shit salaries and would have to rely on bribes to make ends meet, which is what they do in Third-World countries today and what they did in America 150 years ago.

Posted by: Jay | Mar 10, 2007 5:48:18 PM

Fred, you're a tempting troll to feed, but you don't know what you're talking about. You've never been to Europe (I lived in Germany for three years and Hungary for one) and you've never been to the Third World (neither have I, but I've lived in Puerto Rico for two years, and that's as close as I want to come.)

I don't know anything about you beyond the fact that you're an idiot, and you don't know anything about me -- but I'll tell you this. I'm a freelance programmer and technical translator. Unlike free-market theorists, I work for a living, and I get paid well for it. In any civilized country, there would be a health care system in which I could participate, but I have the misfortune of living America.

Fred, my son has an incurable kidney condition. No insurer will touch him, of course, because people like you think he deserves to bear the brunt of his father's questionable financial decisions -- back in the midst of the recession, when my income from programming consulting went from $90,000 to $23,000 in one year (no exaggeration) I let the health insurance lapse. Wanted to eat, you see, and keep the house. It seemed like a good bet.

It wasn't.

Now I'm faced with paying for a kidney transplant sometime in the next ten years, from my own pocket. And Fred? I blame you, and other idiots like you. The free market is great, where it works -- I am far more a capitalist than you, I presume, because although I don't know what you do for a living (or if you're employed at all) I'm pretty sure you don't manage your own business, as I do, and I'm pretty sure you don't watch the currency conversions, as I do, and I'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about your quality of output, as I do. In fact, I'm willing to bet, Fred, that you've never had to work hard at all.

So before you assume I'm a bee, Fred, try being less of a moron.

Oh, here's something that even you should be able to wrap your little head around. If you believe in the free market, let's use the free market to pay for the next war. How would that be? Because obviously, if you don't believe the government should be collecting and disbursing funds, you patently can't believe that shoveling money to Halliburton and the military can be sound fiscal policy.

Oddly enough, we would agree on that point.

Now, on to the "issues that didn't make the cut." Fred. And I'll go easy, because as I've said, it's obvious you've never left the United States from your blithe ignorance.

First point: they didn't make the cut because they weren't what you were talking about. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with the free market idiocy you were espousing, and it has nothing to do with socialism, either. You probably already know this, but like all conservatives, you're too goddamn stupid to argue a single position and realize when you've lost it, instead pretending you were actually talking about something else entirely. This is called "moving the goalposts" and it's the last refuge of the incompetent.

Second: the intangibles for which people "flocked" to the United States are largely historical. America is dying because of people like you, Fred, who think that claiming superiority is equivalent to actually acting in a superior way. You have no morals, you have no ability to plan, and all you have is your propaganda. Sure, people are still coming to the States -- but not from Europe any more, Fred, because they're not stupid (unlike you) and know that life here isn't better. Instead, we're still getting a lot of people from the Third World, because there is still more money here, at least until China pulls the plug. And we're getting people who believe what used to be true -- and when they get here and realize that the whole place is a gilded shithole, Fred, due to people like you who think an ideology is better than buckling down and doing work and taking care of your people? Those people aren't happy to be disillusioned.

Third: I'll just quote the whole damn sentence of Fred's intangibles, shall I? "[I] just [dosn't] seem to value independence, tremendous economic opportunity, freedom of government interference, personal freedoms like freedom of speech (Try taking a non-approved public position about the holocost in Germany for instance), freedom of religion, the right to personal weapons for defense, etc."

Yeah, Fred, way to go, you're really showing your education on this one. Independence, I'll grant you for now. But I get the same feeling in Germany and Hungary, because there, the government is largely under the control of the people, regardless of what Fox tells you, Fred, and unlike *our* government at this juncture. "Tremendous economic opportunity," ha! Yeah. Fred, this one brings a chuckle. You've never run a business, have you? It's no easier here than in Europe, the difference being that in Europe, you don't need to worry about hidden benefits costs. It's all there, and the health care system is much, much more efficient than here in the States. (No, I won't link statistics. You can find them as easily as I.) Unless you're *exploiting your labor*, of course, in which case slave states like the US can really help you get ahead over the bloody corpses of your social inferiors. Again, Fred, you should move to Argentina, but keep it out of America, OK?

Freedom from government interference? What the FUCK are you talking about? Have you even LIVED through the last six years? Jesus, you're a fucking retard. Enough said on that point.

Personal freedoms like freedom of speech? Freedom of speech? You wouldn't know this, never having criticized a war, but there is very little freedom of speech here in the States. And you're a fool. In Germany, the freedom to hold a political position is a jealously guarded one -- they've been down the road you espouse, Fred, and they didn't like the outcome. Oh, sure, you can't contradict historical fact and profess that Jews never had it so good as under Nazi Germany, but that's not freedom of speech, Fred, that's yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater, and if you don't know it already, well, again: you're a fool.

Freedom of religion? Try running for office in America as an atheist and tell me how free you are to have the religion of your own choice, you jerk.

The right to personal weapons for defense? Jesus, Fred, you do realize that people outside the United States have firearms, too, right? Even in Europe -- please, Fred, do some research before you just pop off again.

So all in all, Fred, I'm not a bee -- but you're a parasite, and you're a moron. It's plain to see. Granted, you can string words together better than most of your ilk, and besides not being able to spell "Holocaust" you seem to have a basic literacy. But you just don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and calling me a socialist -- which I'm not -- just makes you look stupid.

Please. Just stop.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 10, 2007 8:42:18 PM

Oh, an amusing anecdote on freedom of speech, in comparison between the States and Hungary.

Back in 2005, when we were in Hungary for the summer, my daughter and I were watching TV. They had this strange talk-show-like thing on with a scroller at the bottom where anybody could SMS the station and have their comment scroll across -- kinda neat, but it goes to show you how small Hungary is; it'd never scale to America's size, of course.

Anyway, my daughter, then 10, thought that was pretty slick. She said, "So you could put anything on there you wanted? You could put, President Bush is an idiot?" (OK, so I'll admit to a little propagandization at home.) "Sure," I said. She thought it over. "But then they'd know who said it, right?"

Wow. I realized then that what my daughter had internalized from her education in the United States was that you get in trouble for speaking truth to power. And that technology means a loss of anonymity.

So, no. Freedom of speech is at grave risk in the Republic, if this is what its youth knows of it. And yeah, I blame Fred.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 10, 2007 8:54:04 PM

(And my daughter and I had the first of many long talks about democracy that day.)

Posted by: Michael | Mar 10, 2007 8:55:08 PM

Argh, dammit, I just can't let this one go. It's the "tremendous economic opportunities" I can't put down. What Fred can't comprehend is that those tremendous economic opportunities exist *only for the well-connected* and that those opportunities are the same everywhere. The freedom to starve, that we've got. And the freedom to start my own business, a right I have exercised and (presumably) Fred has not -- well, I know plenty of freelancers, small businesspeople, and sole proprietors in Europe, in Puerto Rico, and in the United States. It's *easier* in Europe -- again, because the choice of independence doesn't have to include letting your family die if they get sick. Instead, there is a healthcare system which works, all the time, for everybody. Well -- mostly. I won't pretend that it's a paradise; my point is that it's better, and we shouldn't let shibboleths like "Socialism is scary" get in the way of making sane, grown-up decisions. Universal health care is a good idea, and it's the Christian thing to do, if you're a Christian. As an atheist, I'll just stick with the fact that it's smart, and it's moral.

Fred, you're a moron *and* a jerk. Do you consider yourself a Christian? I know you consider yourself smart, and it would be entertaining if you were wrong on *both* counts.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 10, 2007 11:02:11 PM

Hmmm. Fred's response seems to be here. After all that effort I'm sure you wouldn't want to miss it.

Best wishes for your son.

Posted by: Sanpete | Mar 11, 2007 12:24:06 AM

Thank you Sanpete. I was reading the other thread on unionism when I replied.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 11, 2007 9:10:59 AM

Fred, you still don't understand. I don't hate you, because I don't know you. I hate what you stand for -- untrammeled nineteenth-century opportunism as a front for corporatist greed. And if you don't *know* you stand for it, then you're even more pathetic.

The fact that you troll on liberal sites to try to convince people *who know better* that Argentina is the way to go, well, it's just stupid and sad. Now that I know you've got a history, I realize I shouldn't have wasted my time.

But you're still unbelievably wrong. I find it flabbergasting that your exception is the *Swiss*! Talk about a country where the well-being of your fellow man is enshrined in law -- you can't even build a building there unless all your neighbors have certified that they don't mind the change in their view. (Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good idea -- but to hold them up as nearly American or something in their respect of individual liberty? You're an idiot.)

Just ... shut up, Fred.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 1:57:43 PM

I don't try to convince you of anything.

But when that mask slips, just a bit, showing the socialist/communist tendencies of the liberal left in this country, it's amusing to shine the light on it and watch the results.
You are, indeed, different in that most others backpeddle, hide and scatter like cockroaches. You are much more dangersous. You think it's just great.

Being that you are so different, you need to call yourself what you really are and that is a Socialist....as socialist that needs desperately to live in a hive. The US is not quite there yet and may not get there in your lifetime, if ever. However, you could probably make a really good living in France.

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 11, 2007 3:43:30 PM

Fred, everyone, even you, thinks socialistic policy is great. You like public roads and a national military. We only disagree about where and how to be socialists.

Posted by: Sanpete | Mar 11, 2007 3:56:03 PM

Wah, I'm Fred, I argue abrasively and then complain that people hate me.

You fucking jerk. Just like Sanpete says: everybody's a socialist, and if you don't know it, you're just plain stupid. I notice you have yet to respond to even a single one of my substantive arguments. And do you know why? Because you can't. Because there are situations where services must be provided which cannot be provided by the free market, and there's just no way short of religion to maintain otherwise.

The US is *backpedaling* from what you see as the dangers of socialism, Fred, because of the propaganda lines you've swallowed. Instead of a robust middle class society, where prosperity is the norm and people can relax and get things done, you've bought into the notion that some people are inherently better than others (which they are, of course, before you accuse me of being a social insect again) and that the purpose of society is to give those better people the entire pie (which is stupid on the face of it -- nobody wants to live in the Third World, you jerk.)

*I* am not behind a mask, Mr. Alias. I simply state that free-market capitalism was an exciting notion in the 1600's, but we've moved on since then. And I loathe chickens who want me to vote for Colonel Sanders. Very simple.

Nobody here is backpedaling, either. Well, except you, as soon as there is a substantive argument on the table. What people deny -- volubly -- is your facile equivalence between sound economics and Stalinism. Even calling it "socialism" is an oversimplification, especially given the historical connotations here in the States. But you know that, of course, even if you find it uncomfortable to have it mentioned aloud.

In your previous reply, you said that nobody bears me or my son ill will. Fred, you lie when you say that. If you honestly belive in free-market health care with no socialist structures at all, then you condemn my son and others like him to death -- happily, because it supports your free-market religion. That's why I asked whether you consider yourself a Christian. I notice you haven't answered. Is that because the answer is too uncomfortable for you, or because you just don't really care about the argument, but rather you want to see yourself as vanquishing liberals?

You know who's dangerous here, Fred? It's people like you who will argue any point to reintroduce the nineteenth century. It's people like you who want to put the poor back in the poorhouses, the kids back in the coal mines, take the weekend back, and make sure that the yacht owners can have cheap scullery help. Every advance we've made in the last hundred years towards making the world a better place to live, Fred Jones wants to eliminate to save a buck. And not even for himself, mind you -- Fred wants to make sure the rich get it. Fred, do you think your betters will throw you a bone for that? You're a fool.

Hive? You really think France is a hive? Is Sweden a hive? How about Germany? Italy? Is Italy a hive? Have you *really* been to Europe, Fred? Or are you just lying? Because you can't have been there and still think they're faceless drones in some factory -- oddly enough, the faceless factory drones are what *you* want to bring back from America's glorious nineteenth-century past. Happy blackface, right?

You're the dangerous one, Fred. Please stop. You're killing America.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 4:53:34 PM

Sorry, yet another second thought: Fred actually says, "I don't try to convince you of anything." Wha tha fuh? Then WHY ARE YOU HERE, YOU MORON?

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 4:54:46 PM

Oh, wait, I really need to make fun of your original point a little, Fred. I believe your original point is that unionized labor working on the streets is too expensive.

What I'd like to know, then, is why you aren't protesting the replacement of cheap military labor with way-more-expensive contractors? You know how much those guys get paid? But that's just fine, isn't it, Fred?

And I know why, too. Because contracting companies make connected people rich. And Fred wants to think of himself as a connected, potentially rich person. And Fred? You're not. Because if you were, you wouldn't be here.

So Fred -- do the world some good. Fight the real waste instead of the perceived waste they're spoon-feeding you. And then maybe your pathetic shrivelled soul won't burn in Hell.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 5:17:06 PM

Shorter Michael: Fred is a bad guy because he doesn't want to fund all of the things that I think I'm owed.

Isn't that really about it? Execpt the part where you can't discuss anything without all of the hatred.

Grow up or don't discuss, putz

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 11, 2007 9:17:06 PM

Hahaha. I didn't think you'd be man enough to answer any real questions.

Go away, Fred.

(Shorter Fred: Unions are bad because they might give scary people more money than I think they deserve. People that aren't my people, you know what I mean?)

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 9:32:11 PM

Talk about masks being pulled away.... Way to project, Fred.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 11, 2007 9:42:13 PM

This conversation is going nowhere. I guess I'll just have to take solace in the fact that the unions have been on the wane and continue to lose ground. If current trends continue, they will largely be a thing of the past in the very near future. My agenda and the agenda of consumers, is being served at the expense of yours.

Enjoy, union-boy

Posted by: Fred Jones | Mar 12, 2007 12:42:04 AM

Fred, you're a poseur and a wimp. You're incapable of engaging in an honest discussion because you know you'll lose.

And again: calling me union-boy misses the point. Of course. You can do nothing *but* miss points, because that's your technique, plain and simple. Sound and fury, signifying nothing.

You bore me.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 13, 2007 1:38:14 PM

And I guess the basic philosophical point is that you profess that you are *only* a consumer, that in fact there are mythical people out there besides you who are *only* consumers. They don't drive on roads, they don't get sick, they don't work for a living, they don't use utilities. All they do is shop at Wal-Mart and they don't look at quality, either, just the price. Nothing else.

That sleight-of-hand abstraction is all that gives your position a veneer of plausibility, Fred, and it's bankrupt. We've tried it. It doesn't work. Grow up, and move on.

Posted by: Michael | Mar 13, 2007 1:47:24 PM

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