« The "Mystery" of Growth-Challenged Wages | Main | Does Anyone Think We Shouldn't Attack Iran? »
February 14, 2007
Why Does American Health Care Cost So Much?
The nonpartisan McKinsey Group has released a study called "Accounting for the Cost of Health Care in the United States." The idea, as the title suggests, is to figure out, in a rigorous and methodical way, why we pay so much more than any other developed country. To do this, McKinsey constructed the Estimated Spending According to Wealth (ESAW) index, which adjusts cross-national health spending for increases per capita earnings (you would expect, after all, that a country which makes more money would pay more for care) and creates a clean baseline for comparisons. On this metric, we overpay to the tone of $477 billion per year, or $1,645 per capita. The question is why. (Note: From here on out, most numbers refer to the amount we spend above what ESAW would predict)
The very short answer is that we pay more for unites of care. McKinsey estimates that it is not higher disease prevalence. Differences in health account for only about $25 billion of the variation -- a drop in the bucket. The difference really is that we pay higher doctor salaries, higher drug costs, higher operation costs, more per day in the hospital, etc, etc. In essence, we're getting a terrible deal.
Take drugs. The report finds that we overpay for prescription drugs by $66 billion. If you compare brand name drugs in the US and Canada, the same drug will cost you a full 60% more here. If you restrict that to the top selling drugs, you find we pay 230% more than anyone else. For generics, the difference evaporates. So on average, we overpay by 60-70% for pharmaceuticals, largely because we don't bargain down the costs just like every other country. In essence, we're subsidizing the low drug costs for the rest of the world. If we demanded the discounts as well, other countries would pay a bit more, but we'd pay a lot less. This, of course, is just what the administration has been trying to prevent in their fight against allowing Medicare to bargain down prices. They believe American consumers should continue paying for the discounts of Europeans.
Doctor's compensations are also problematic: We overpay here by $58 billion. In other nations, specialists make 4 times the average salary. In America, they make 6.6 times the mean. Meanwhile, the overall profits of the system add on another $75 billion in costs. Another $147 billion in increased spending, much of it a consequence of the fee-for-service system, wherein doctors are paid based on how many procedures they recommend and carry out. Doctors with equity in facilities where they can co-refer cases conduct between two and eight times more tests than those without equity interests. Just another way the profit incentive helps us out.
And of course, there's administration, where we pay $98 billion more than anyone else, $84 billion of it in oh-so-efficient private sector. 64% of those costs come from insurer underwriting and advertising -- in other words, we're paying more than $50 billion dollars so insurers can convince us we need care and then figure out how to deny those of us who'll actually use it. That's some added value.
Anyway, I'll close out the wonkery here, but hopefully the point is made. We pay way too much, and get nothing for it. We pay because most actors in the system seek profits rather than wellness, because doctors buy their homes based no the number of tests they prescribe and pharmaceutical companies don't give us discounts because they've bought Congress and insurers get us to pay for them to figure out how to deny care. This is not a system anyone would consciously build. It is not a system any patient would choose. But it is a system we can change. The report, however, also explains the danger of moving to universal care without fixing the structural perversities. To extend coverage without changing these dynamics would add on another $77 billion of spending beyond what it should cost.
For more on the report, see Goozner and Pearlstein.
Crossposted to Tapped
February 14, 2007 in Health Care | Permalink
Comments
I'm just wondering - I don't necessarily have an opinion - but is McKinsey really non-partisan? The company that hired Chelsea Clinton? I'm not doubting the work or the validity of the findings... just wondering about the designation...
Posted by: weboy | Feb 14, 2007 4:32:48 PM
The difference really is that we pay higher doctor salaries, higher drug costs, higher operation costs, more per day in the hospital, etc, etc. In essence, we're getting a terrible deal.
This is exactly what I have been saying while the lefties seem to want to only focus on insurance. Attack the root problem and not the symptom. A good start would be to encourage the building of lots of schools to pump out more doctors. Allowing other disciplines to practice would be helpful as well as we have with Osteopaths.
Bottom line, supply and demand for hospitals and services. Want cheaper health care? Produce more providers.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 14, 2007 4:40:26 PM
McKinsey is very non-partisan. Why would hiring Chelsea change that?
Posted by: Ezra | Feb 14, 2007 4:54:45 PM
"McKinsey is very non-partisan. Why would hiring Chelsea change that?"
Once there a post yesterday about how the right likes to disagree with anything from the left out of spite, not because we are factually wrong. Well, chalk up the queston, even if the poster who asked it, as a rightward frame. Guilt by association.
Posted by: akaison | Feb 14, 2007 5:26:42 PM
Wow, I agree with Fred, we should be definitely be increasing the supply of doctors.
We also need to change the extremely screwed-up compensation system of charging per treatment administered, versus charging for making patients well. Here's just one small example from the world of breast cancer. When the surgeon resects the tumor, he or she can insert a device that that adminsters a steady dose of radiation, in order to kill any remaining cancerous cells at that site.
What European hospitals do is insert the device at the time that the surgeon removes the cancerous lump.
What American hospitals do is schedule the woman for another surgery. There is no legitimate medical reason to do this, but you do get to charge for anesthetizing and opening up the patient again.
This kind of stuff is the "dark matter" of American health care. Our system is just riddled with this kind of crapola. And these inefficiencies are all a direct and predictable result of the economic incentives we have in place.
Posted by: Evan | Feb 14, 2007 6:25:43 PM
I'd GUESS that if we explored the question of why medical providers charge so much more than seems justifiable by comparison, we'd get several other problems to unwind:
- costs of undergraduate and medical education, with the education paid for by huge loans. What do other countries do about medical education costs?
- cost of administration of provider's practices. All providers complain that they must have substantial staff just to haggle with insurers on coverage, collect bills from insurers and patients, etc. I think we know that administration adds about 14% to US medical costs versus a lower number elsewhere (and only a couple of percent for Medicare).
- proportion of providers doing specialty practice. My guess that far higher percentages of MDs/etc. are doing specialties that command higher market prices. Is this a fact?
- health care may be a place where competition increases costs, rather than prices being set by market forces (supply/demand). I suspect that specialists in particular set their prices by comparison with high-price leaders rather than low-cost competitors. When needing medical care, cost is not in the mind of the patient and they don't shop around for bargains. Since many providers are independent persons or medical groups, they really can set their own prices in many settings, subject only to what insurers will pay plus what they can get from patients. For the uninsured, they can and do set their prices well above the price for insurered patients.
My point above is that we can't just say they are greedy profit mongers and that's why our costs are higher. That may be true for some, but other forces are at work that suggest that free enterprise doesn't work well for the commodity we call health care.
I'm quite happy to let the government or some large, state-wide purchasing coop negotiate prices on my behalf because they really can negotiate and I can't.
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Feb 14, 2007 6:39:31 PM
I'm prepared to get behind Fred if he really means it about breaking the AMA. But I wonder if he realizes that that's what he's proposing.
Posted by: NBarnes | Feb 14, 2007 6:49:13 PM
He might. Fred is a troll, and he can't see the nose on your face sometimes, but he's not an idiot. If his religious adherence to right-wing ideology doesn't get in the way, he can be very smart, and breaking the AMA is just like breaking any other union to the right -- a good thing.
I don't mind the AMA as such, but I don't like guilds, both on grounds of economic inefficiency and because they are by their nature designed to make sure certain industries serve only their membership and not society as a whole. Both left and right, to be honest, should be anti-guild.
Break the AMA's grip on the practice of medicine by breaking its guild status, but leave the AMA itself alone. That's a win for both left and right, and even for all potential and retired US doctors, who far outnumber the current ones whose incomes breaking the guild hurts.
Posted by: wcw | Feb 14, 2007 7:20:19 PM
You wanna know why health care costs are so high?
John Edwards and people like him.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 14, 2007 8:00:17 PM
Okay Toke, what is the percentage of American health care costs that is due to torts?
This should be fun.
Posted by: Evan | Feb 14, 2007 8:21:54 PM
Evan, don't bait the trolls.
(Although the response to that bait should be fun indeed.)
Posted by: eriks | Feb 14, 2007 8:59:53 PM
You wanna know why health care costs are so high?
John Edwards and people like him.
Posted by: Captain Toke
LOL - you aren't linking to a Free Republic site? You don't have quotes from Democrats agreeing with Bush about what the real problem with health care is? You haven't confused an editorial with anything like evidence or research? Awww, Toke, you aren't even trying any more. It's so sad!
Oh, wait, that was just acid reflux. No, not sad at all.
Posted by: Cyrus | Feb 14, 2007 10:15:33 PM
wcw: Adopting your use of 'guild', I'd say that the AMA is entirely defined by its guild nature. Stripping the AMA of its guild-ness would almost certainly mean breaking it as an organization. I'm certainly in favor of a doctor's union in a more general sense, but since the AMA is so entirely and essentially wedded to its role as a guild, I don't know that it can be reformed.
Also, I echo Evan's question to Toke.
Posted by: NBarnes | Feb 14, 2007 11:08:49 PM
"Okay Toke, what is the percentage of American health care costs that is due to torts?"
Well, there's the torts, the unnecessary and expensive medical procedures and tests that doctors order for patients to cover their asses. The outrageous medical malpractice insurance. Student nurses have to buy a million dollar policy where I go to school.
John Edwards won a six and a half million dollar lawsuit against a doctor because he claimed that doctor caused his client's child to have cerebral palsy, a nervous disorder. The scumbag even channeled the child from the womb to the jury, the child begging to be let out. Edwards claimed if the doctor had done a C-section, the child would have been fine.
Since the seventies, C-sections are up from 6% to 26%, and a big part of that because doctors want to cover their asses. But there has been no drop in the cerebral palsy rate. He used junk science. C-sections are done to avoid lawsuits, but the procedure is more painful, more expensive because of not only the procedure but for extended hospital stay, and the procedure poses greater health risks.
That is just one lawyer and one procedure, and the expense and suffering inflicted by the millions of unnecessary C-sections has benefited no one, except John Edwards. Imagine the hundreds of thousands if not millions of lawyers like Edwards (some that I'm sure Edwards himself inspired) and all the other bogus lawsuits and all the other unnecessary tests and unnecessary medical procedures and unnessary expense and suffering.
Do you understand ripple effect?
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 14, 2007 11:15:51 PM
Just think of the burden Edwards alone has inflicted on our health care system.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 14, 2007 11:21:50 PM
I understand misdirection because unless tort can explain the cost of pharmaceticals for the same drug in the US versus the rest of the world or the cost of getting a medical education etc, then its called a smoke screen masquerading as a real argument.
The problem with lowering the standards (which is what adding more medical schools would do is that it reduces quality). I will be happy with doing that so long as it's folks like Fred who get to go to the doctors who aren't as well trained because we wanted quantity or quality.
Posted by: akaison | Feb 14, 2007 11:22:39 PM
"(which is what adding more medical schools would do is that it reduces quality). I will be happy with doing that so long as it's folks like Fred who get to go to the doctors who aren't as well trained because we wanted quantity or quality."
I think akaison is OK with socialized medicine as long as the riff-raff go to the low paid, undertrained, cookie-cutter doctors that socialized medicine would produce.
But akaison isn't an elitist liberal.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 14, 2007 11:40:13 PM
1.) I would second Captain Toke's arguments in that much of the current medical system and bureaucracy is designed to address litigation risks. This applies not only to marginally useful tests (e.g. CTs for headaches which I personally have ordered for patients unnecessarily on the sole basis that that was the current "standard of care") but also the entire placement system that hospitals are forced to employ. Our hospital Brackenridge employs a ridiculous number of people just to shift "patients" into other instituitions because we can't be seen to be blamed for a homeless individual's later runins with the law, etc.
2.) This AMA bashing puzzles me since they have essentially no power. Not only are they an ineffective lobbying group judged by physician reimbursement rates but most physicians don't belong to it. Also they have no power over postgraduate medical education (a body called ACGME runs this) or over medical schools (the AAMC sets standards for them). Perhaps people incorrectly think they are analagous to the ABA?
3.) In re postgraduate medical training (residency) --this is the real roadblock to more physicians. The govt. funds these spots and doesnt want to pay for more (along with the enormous cost of underwriting medical schools) while hospitals certainly won't do that. Most doctors in addition wouldn't be caught dead in teaching hospitals instructing medical students and residents.
The US medical system as a result is highly dependent on importing foreign medical labor and will continue to be so given these facts. Given the working conditions of long hours, extensive further educational requirements, etc., only third world physicians are willing to emigrate, a little remarked upon problem for obvious reasons.
4.) More doctors = less health care cost is a fiction. It might decrease avg. compensation but certainly not total health care costs as every study has shown due to increasing referrals, specialization and procedures. Matt Yglesias had a good posting on his blog about this a while back.
5.) Lowering doctor pay is a great idea if you want less talented people in the field. As it is, thanks to Baumol's disease, the number and quality of Harvard students (to pick one proxy for whatever its worth) going into medicine has almost certainly declined anecdotally...Logically, one could hardly doubt that decreasing compensation would lead to lower quality applicants. Given the increasing opportunity and absolute costs of a medical education in the US (10 yrs. post college and usually at least 200 thousand in assorted expenses post-college), I doubt this idea could be implemented without significant adverse effects.
Posted by: vik | Feb 14, 2007 11:40:55 PM
toke stop posting under different names. and by the way, standard reply to the crazies: provide links to reputable sources or else it will be concluded (as it should) that you are making shit up.
Posted by: akaison | Feb 14, 2007 11:53:12 PM
akaison, why don't you ask ezra if I am doing what you are accusing me of. And if you aren't up to date on this particular subject (Edward's cerebral palsy case) or stats you can easily very, even at wikopedia, then maybe you should come back to the conversation when you can write about the subject intelligently.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 15, 2007 12:02:59 AM
very=verify
I'm blistered
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 15, 2007 12:04:42 AM
I'm actually not Toke...in re above post...
1.) talk to any actual doctor...or better yet, if you are ever in Austin, I will give you a tour of the Brackenridge and you can come to your own conclusions...
2 and 3.) http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/home/home.asp
in addition, i would ask you to particular attention to their requirements for work hours...any field where 80 hours is considered a standard work week is hardly going to attract everyone...
http://www.aamc.org/
please google an explanation of the residency system (pay attention to avg. pay especially considering its in the 40+ grand range)--i'm too lazy to prove something that should be obvious to anyone who wants to comment on medical training in America...As to doctors' attitudes about academic medicine in teaching hospitals, again you will have to talk to real physicians and/or compare academic-private practice salaries (www.careersinmedicine.org)
4.) http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/08/medicare_at_wor.html
5.) Basic economic reasoning...here's an explanation of baumol's disease... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol's_cost_disease
Posted by: vik | Feb 15, 2007 12:09:45 AM
I apologize for the tone of the above...it comes off as a little harsher than I would wish now that I have reread it...
Posted by: vik | Feb 15, 2007 12:11:14 AM
i dont disagree with the stuff about doctor training. i just find reducing it to tort deform simple minded. it's a little like complaining about cigarette smoke in other room while the house is burning down.
Posted by: akaison | Feb 15, 2007 12:19:02 AM
It's not just tort, but tort is a hell of a lot more than cigarette smoke in a burning house, it is a huge part of the problem, and John Edwards is 'bogus medical lawsuit's poster child.
Tort isn't just the money paid out in awards. Like I said, I imagine that John Edwards alone has cost US health care unnecessary billions of dollars in unnecessary medical procedures, time, equipment, manpower, etc. And there are millions of lawyers out there like Edwards.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 15, 2007 12:36:05 AM
What vik said. Only about 1/3 of American MDs (and 0% of DOs) belong to the AMA. The AMA has almost no influence over the number of physicians trained in the U.S. The AMA is merely a lobbying organization.
The number of residency positions is actually controlled by the federal and state governments. In fact, the number of residency positions in primary care is slightly higher than the number of people interested in filling them. In 2006 9% of US residencies were filled by American graduates of foreign medical schools and 24% were filled by non-American graduates of foreign medical schools. From 8 to 12% of primary care residencies are left unfilled each year.
The AAMC (which does control medical school positions) is currently encouraging a 30% increase in medical school first year positions, but there is some trouble getting the various state legislatures and federal government to pony up for the increase. California is planning to add a medical school at UC Riverside with the first class starting in 2012.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 12:37:00 AM
vik:
"The US medical system as a result is highly dependent on importing foreign medical labor.
Given the working conditions of long hours, extensive further educational requirements, etc., only third world physicians are willing to emigrate, a little remarked upon problem for obvious reasons. "
So we may conclude that quality of third-world medical labor is comparable to quality of US trained docs.
We may assume that quality of docs in the West is at least equal to those from Pakistan and Phillipines.
We also know that docs in EU and Canada make significantly less that US docs.
Why don't they come?
Perhaps our immigration policies designed to discourage people from immigrating and only super-determined third-worlders ready to jump thru hundreds loops will make it here.
"Lowering doctor pay is a great idea if you want less talented people in the field."
This contradicts your previous statement. Even with much lower income for US docs, Pakis, Philipinos, etc still will be coming in droves. And, as you stated, they are good enough for US health care.
Vik, you are not paid propagandist for your guild, are you?
Posted by: mik | Feb 15, 2007 4:20:42 AM
vik:
"The US medical system as a result is highly dependent on importing foreign medical labor.
Given the working conditions of long hours, extensive further educational requirements, etc., only third world physicians are willing to emigrate, a little remarked upon problem for obvious reasons. "
So we may conclude that quality of third-world medical labor is comparable to quality of US trained docs.
We may assume that quality of docs in the West is at least equal to those from Pakistan and Phillipines.
We also know that docs in EU and Canada make significantly less that US docs.
Why don't they come?
Perhaps our immigration policies designed to discourage people from immigrating and only super-determined third-worlders ready to jump thru hundreds loops will make it here.
"Lowering doctor pay is a great idea if you want less talented people in the field."
This contradicts your previous statement. Even with much lower income for US docs, Pakis, Philipinos, etc still will be coming in droves. And, as you stated, they are good enough for US health care.
Vik, you are not paid propagandist for your guild, are you?
Posted by: mik | Feb 15, 2007 4:22:29 AM
Having worked as billing in a small pediatrics office, I partially agree with Toke and vik.
First off though, I don't think the ridiculously high malpractice insurance in this country is so much tort reform, it's the fact that most states' insurance commissioners have their elections bought and paid for by the insurance companies. When malpractice insurance has reached 10 to 15 percent of the practice's gross, there's something seriously fucking wrong. There's barely any OBGYNs in Arizona due to this, and California's following suit very quickly.
Another thing toke and vik brought up is the high cost of schooling in our country. Other country's doctors can afford to work for a lower price because they don't take on this huge burden of debt before they enter their residency. Why the hell would you want to enter primary care where the fee for service system screws you over if you could become any specialty and make more money? It's gotten so bad that Texas is currently paying a bounty for pediatricians, $100,000 of your medical debt paid if you agree to practice in Texas for three years.
Pediatricians are even more screwed when it comes to pay compared to other primary care, because Medicare and most state insurances seem to run on this "If they're half the age, we only pay half as much." policy. Go and look on Washington state's DSHS website and look up their repayment policy for vaccinations(Required for every school in the state.) If the patient is over the age of 18, they'll pay the full medicare benefit. If the patient is under 18, they expect the practice to write it off. "We care about children, except, you know, when it comes to paying for them."
Another thing to bring up is that insurance plans generally only pay the cost of the test(As determined by their underwriters as opposed to the medical staff who actually have to buy it from a company), expect it to be included in the E&M, or tell the doctor to bill the patient. The doctor only orders "unnecessary tests" to cover his ass.
Ezra's health care posts generally annoy me to no end as he always comes off as an ivory tower intellectual. Point the first: His general approval of Schwarzenegger's "Make doctors pay for their patients to switch from good insurance to California's shitty state insurance". Point the second: His "Only fourteen percent of doctors are computerized! Why are they so behind the times?" post. Let me tell you, if you went to buy a car and they expected you to pay BMW prices for a Daewoo with a barely legible sticker and a hood welded shut, you'd stick to your bicycle. Medical software isn't like going out and buying Windows. Each medical program on the market is pretty much something written for a specific doctor, that only includes the features that doctor wanted, that the programmer than decided to stick up on a website for sale. The only program we've ever found that had all the features needed for a pediatrics office was written to only run in DOS. A program written in 2002, and it only runs in DOS. How messed up is that?
Probably the worst thing to ever happen to small practice physicians in this country is the rotten bill of goods they were sold in the early 80s with "Don't bill your patients, bill the insurance directly." which moved most of the bargaining power from the doctor to the insurance companies. It doesn't matter what a doctor charges, because the insurance plan is only going to pay what they've contracted for, and the doctor's only option is to either take the fee or lose patients when they drop the plan. Generally the companies only raise rates once enough doctors have dropped them that their insured start complaining about a lack of choice. State insurances don't care at all, so you'll wind up with only one or two doctors in a county that are willing to still accept state insured patients. Unless you're in a state like Alabama, where the state insurance is actually willing to pay a rate competitive with private insurance.
Posted by: Regault | Feb 15, 2007 6:18:02 AM
I'd also like to add, it always annoys me that Primary Care is probably the lowest part of the cost equation when it comes to medical care, but every single costcutting measure ever proposed boils down to gouging primary care even lower.
Posted by: Regault | Feb 15, 2007 6:22:44 AM
Ah McKinsey, one of those crunchy supposedly non-partisan economic think tanks. Unfortunately their cover was blown wide open when they hired Chelsea Clinton.
“American doctors make a lot more money than doctors elsewhere”
I love how they dodge and weave here. Once again they are comparing apples to oranges. Do American doctors make more money than doctors in developing nations? Of course they do. Surprisingly, something McKinsey does not want you to know, is that in fact GPs in the UK are now making nearly $200k per year! The GPs there have figured out how to beat the NHS administrators at their own game. Sadly, the NHS is imploding as evidenced by the sky-rocketing spending and severe rationing.
Using the per capita OECD spending data and calculating percent increases year over year we see that the UK is outpacing the USA in spending growth. Averaging the year over year percent spending increases from 2000 to 2004 the UK has averaged 8% per year and the USA has averaged 7% per year. Not a huge difference but still present, even in the face of the rationing within the UK government controlled single payer system. (2000 UK $1858 (8.6%) USA $4588 (5.8%); 2001 UK $2029 (9.2%) USA $4933 (7.5%); 2002 UK $2228 (9.8%) USA $5324 (7.9%); 2003 UK $2317 (4.0%) USA $5711 (7.3%); 2004 UK $2508 (8.2%) USA $6102 (6.8%)).
Additionally, just released data out of Washington stated, “data show that in 2005, spending on healthcare grew 6.9%. That was the smallest rate of increase since 1999, and marked the third straight year in which the pace had moderated.”
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/medicine/la-na-health9jan09,1,3515088.story?coll=la-health-medicine
“Included in the income figures is $8 billion physicians earn as investors in diagnostic labs and outpatient surgical clinics. The good news is that those private facilities charge 20 to 30 percent less than hospitals for what they do…”
More smoke and mirrors. The CMS has looked at this extensively and has not found this to be the case. In fact, the CMS and private insurers are moving things out of the hospitals because it is significantly cheaper. They are sick of getting ripped off in the hospitals. Additionally, it has been shown that less errors occur in doctors’ offices compared to the mega-hospitals.
And so, the 'Single Payer Cheerleaders' continue their march, obscuring the truth with their patented smoke and mirrors.
Posted by: squid | Feb 15, 2007 7:00:57 AM
Having worked as billing in a small pediatrics office, I partially agree with Toke and vik
It appears that the billing agent and the doctor, those actually in the field, understand what Toke is talking about. The cost of additional unnecesssary tests that have now become standard care because of lawsuits. It's also a hard dollar figure to measure.
What do you think would happen if physicians were free to practice without worry of lawsuits at the drop of every hat?
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:25:30 AM
Having worked as billing in a small pediatrics office, I partially agree with Toke and vik
It appears that the billing agent and the doctor, those actually in the field, understand what Toke is talking about. The cost of additional unnecesssary tests that have now become standard care because of lawsuits. It's also a hard dollar figure to measure.
What do you think would happen if physicians were free to practice without worry of lawsuits at the drop of every hat?
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:30:24 AM
italics off, sorry 'bout that.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:35:36 AM
italics off, sorry 'bout that.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:36:01 AM
italics off, sorry 'bout that.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:41:54 AM
Still want socialized medicine??
London's Observer (3/3/02) carried a story saying that an "unpublished report shows some patients are now having to wait more than eight months for treatment, during which time many of their cancers become incurable." Another story said, "According to a World Health Organisation report to be published later this year, around 10,000 British people die unnecessarily from cancer each year -- three times as many as are killed on our roads."
Democratic presidential hopeful John Edwards gestures as he fields questions during a town hall meeting on health care Thursday, Feb. 8, 2007, at the International Longshoremens Association ILA Union Hall in Charleston, S.C. (AP Photo/Mary Ann Chastain)
Related Audio:
Health Insurance, Not Health Care
The Observer (12/16/01) also reported, "A recent academic study showed National Health Service delays in bowel cancer treatment were so great that, in one in five cases, cancer which was curable at the time of diagnosis had become incurable by the time of treatment."
The story is no better in Canada's national health care system. The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute has a yearly publication titled, "Waiting Your Turn." Its 2006 edition gives waiting times, by treatments, from a person's referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a specialist. The shortest waiting time was for oncology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks), followed by plastic surgery (35.4 weeks) and neurosurgery (31.7 weeks).
Canadians face significant waiting times for various diagnostics such as computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound scans. The median wait for a CT scan across Canada was 4.3 weeks, but in Prince Edward Island, it's 9 weeks. A Canadian's median wait for an MRI was 10.3 weeks, but in Newfoundland, patients waited 28 weeks. Finally, the median wait for an ultrasound was 3.8 weeks across Canada, but in Manitoba and Prince Edward Island it was 8 weeks.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2007/02/14/do_we_want_socialized_medicine
You may not like Town Hall, but Williams documents the articles as "The Observer" and gives dates.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 8:45:06 AM
Haven't read the paper and won't (deep in something else) but for those who have, a question. Have they adjusted for the heirarchy of needs? That we expect health care to take a growing portion of the economy as we get richer, as other desires are assuaged?
Posted by: Tim Worstall | Feb 15, 2007 9:11:57 AM
Fred- why don't you see what the median wait times are between New York city and Odessa, Wash.? You are going to get radical differences in services between large urban centers and smaller rural ones. I am sure that the care in Rhode Island is very different than that in Louisianna? Median wait times are a very poor way of judging anything but differences in locality and conditions.
The greater concern is primary care. Most locales are reasonably covered for the emergency care field but most concerns are about wait times in hospital ERs. Much of this comes about because of lack of available primary care during off hours. Child throws high fever at midnight, you go to the ER and are triaged behind the three car pile-up- you wait, the next day you complain loudly or worse, your condition deteriorates as you wait and it isn't caught due to busy conditions, and you become a true emergency.
When thing go real bad, wait times are virtually non existant. Otherwise,
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060711/d060711c.htm
Wait times for primary care, non-emergency diagnostics and preventative care are greater but that is mostly because the resources have been shuffled into emergency care. This is a difference of medical culture and priorities, when everything is drawn from one pot then choices will be made. The American system is also just one pot. The argument is should all people be covered, perhaps inadequately, or should some be covered completely and others left out in the cold. Like all of life, it is a choice for good or ill.
Posted by: Hawise | Feb 15, 2007 9:16:32 AM
Given the crippling effect that torts have had on our health care industry, a situation exploited by John Edwards and people like him purely out of greed, does anyone believe he deserves to be president? Does anyone believe he is the one to fix the healthcare 'crisis' in this country?
If he is elected, maybe Edwards could appoint Bill Clinton 'US Czar for the Promotion of Feminism and Respect for Women's Dignity'.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 15, 2007 10:53:12 AM
If he is elected, maybe Edwards could appoint Bill Clinton 'US Czar for the Promotion of Feminism and Respect for Women's Dignity'.
*Or* quility control for the "Department of Wayward Women 18-35". It's a demographic that has been largely passed over for government assistance.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 15, 2007 12:01:05 PM
It appears that this thread has already been trolled to death and cremated, but for what it's worth -
I've had quite a few years in the health industry, working for the VA and in the private sector, and the biggest money vacuum that I can see is in the administrative duties for private medical practice. Simply hiring, training and maintaining a staff of people to keep up with the myriad of insurance particulars for every single patient and plan is a huge drain. Of course this distraction didn't exist in the VA world and VA processing was incredibly efficient, at least when compared to its private market counterpart. Add to this that most patients in private care seem to only ever have the very vaguest idea of how their own plans work, and tend to leave it all up to the office to figure it out, making poor ill informed choices along the way.
Then on the other end, you have a team of BSNs or master's degree inspectors working for the insurance company that constantly second guess the work of physicians in the field, throwing up obstacles and denying payment for anything they can throw against us. My understanding is that these vetters tend to be extremely well paid (in fact I've known quite a few nurses over the years to turn to the dark side and work for insurance companies simply to bring home the big paycheck).
These things just add loads of needless cost to the consumer.
Posted by: sprocket | Feb 15, 2007 12:06:50 PM
Hello, I actually do Health Policy for a living. I agree with Fred Jones that increasing the number of docs would be a good thing. But, last time I looked, there's no evidence it would bring costs down. The evidence is pretty solidly the other way, that more docs means higher costs. I could go out and cite studies, but why bother if Toke's use of anecdotes is the standard?
Also, there's been a huge increase in use of non-physician providers over the last 20 or so years. I mean Nurse Practitioners, Physician's Assistants, Nurse-Midwifes. That helps, but it hasn't brought costs down much.
There haven't been any new Med Schools opening in the US, except Osteopathic schools which is good as far as I'm concerned because they turn out more Primary Care docs than the allopathic schools. We need more Primary Care, which costs much less than Specialist care, but trying to move med students that way would clash with much cherished free market doctrine.
I give it another 10-12 years before the whole health care system collapses and we go back to the drawing board and look seriously at what works in the real world vs. what works in the fevered imagination of right wing trolls and make the right choice.
Posted by: SteveH | Feb 15, 2007 12:07:01 PM
the low paid, undertrained, cookie-cutter doctors that socialized medicine would produce.
Non fucking sequitur, but that's no fucking surprise.
If you think, for instance, that the Oxford or London University clinical school turns out quacks to the single-provider NHS, then you really ought to see a doctor yourself. One factor behind practitioner salaries is that you don't need a mortgage's worth in student loans to get a medical degree most places outside the US.
London's Observer (3/3/02)--
And precisely what year are we in now, Jim?
Never mind that Williams (and the pro-privatization Fraser Institute) cherry-picks for a purpose: it's kneejerk diagnostic practice in the US to shove a patient into a scanner, because that provides ass-coverage and rakes in the cash. Other systems may not have the shiniest technology, but they do diagnose incrementally, rather than according to what pays best.
Posted by: pseudonymous in nc | Feb 15, 2007 12:11:45 PM
'the low paid, undertrained, cookie-cutter doctors that socialized medicine would produce.'
That may explain why interns at McGill in Montreal can't go to the bathroom without a recruiter from the US handing them a pamphlet. Snark aside, it is really a problem in jurisdictions that subsidize medical education that the US has no problem hiring these young doctors but every problem helping them get started on the path into medecine in the first place. The fact that they work for a few years in the States and then come home again does not change the fact that our tax money was not intended to help lower the cost of breast reduction surgery in Florida.
Snark back on, Edwards can't do worse with hiring choices than Bush has.
Posted by: Hawise | Feb 15, 2007 12:26:31 PM
Initiating an electronic medical records system is not that easy.
As a former software engineer turned physician, I'm strongly in favor of EMRs in principle, but I've also had experience from my previous career that says that switching simpler systems from paper to electronic records is not quite as easy as Ezra would have us believe. Much less moving medical records from paper to electronics. I hate paper, type fluently, and cringe at the thought of making the transistion.
Although I am willing to believe that American physicians are better paid than most (but not all) western European physicians, I think that it's also pretty clear that the same can be said for all American professionals. The salary structure is different here. I think that it's also significant that few European MDs chose to immigrate to the U.S. and that the educational gap is made up by third world MDs, mostly from the countries with strong English education programs. I work with a Swedish trained Iranian Jew (had to leave his home country for non-economic reasons....) He says that practicing medicine in Europe is much easier, the lifestyle is better, etc., but lives here for family reasons.
Besides that, last year the CEO of United Health Care made $1.4 billion in compensation. The fact that the average primary care doc make a few thousand more than the average European doc, is kind of dwarfed by that.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 12:30:45 PM
"Given the crippling effect that torts have had on our health care industry"
Bullshit.
Ezra has already refuted this many times, see for example:
http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/07/malpractice_in_.html
"The total cost of malpractice suits is thus 6.5 billion --.46% of health care costs, or less than one half of one percent. They're just not a significant factor in rising health prices, and those who say different are lying.
"
Actual numbers for the cost of malpractice suits can be found at:
http://www.npdb-hipdb.com/npdb.html
if you don't believe Ezra or the Health Affairs review.
Posted by: Doug K | Feb 15, 2007 12:31:59 PM
Note: United Health Care is an insurance company, not a provider of health care.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 12:32:34 PM
Interesting discussion. What does the McKinsey report say about torts, defensive medicine and such?
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 15, 2007 12:39:59 PM
Sanpete, from the Washington Post story:
Don't be distracted by arguments that American doctors need to make more because they have to pay $20 billion a year in malpractice insurance premiums forced on them by a hostile legal system, or an equal amount for all the paperwork required by our private insurance system. The $58 billion in what the study defines as excess physician income is calculated after those expenses are paid.
Posted by: Robert P. | Feb 15, 2007 1:00:13 PM
Aha, I wondered why the noted English Right-Wing Troll, Tim Worstall had turned up on this blog. It's for the healthcare debates. Watch out for the song and dance where he tries to convince you that the Swedish system is a really good example of privatisation (despite private provision being a tiny portion of the service there.) He does a number of other entertaining turns too.
McKinsey should not be treated as non-partisan. They are part of a large scale management consulting company. That introduces biases that may not map easily onto the Republican/Democratic divide, but it very definitely has the potential to bias them in certain directions.
Posted by: Meh | Feb 15, 2007 1:09:39 PM
"The total cost of malpractice suits is thus 6.5 billion --.46% of health care costs, or less than one half of one percent."
DougK, I guess you are too stupid to comprehend more than one effect at a time.
There is the payout to the lawyers, to the rise in malpractice insurance cost, the unnecessary medical procedures that result from the lawsuit, the unnecessary tests that result from the lawsuit, unnecessary training that results from the lawsuit, unnecessary equipment, unnecessary manpower, etc. And there are hundreds of thousands of those lawsuits!.
Why don't you think before taking some clown's writings as gospel.
You guys claim to be concerned about US healthcare costs, yet you will embrace someone like John Edwards.
Hypocrites.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Feb 15, 2007 2:17:05 PM
Thanks Robert. I actually read that right before I asked the question. I'd like to know what the study actually says about the broader issue, how much of that $20 B can be avoided, how defensive medicine fits in, etc.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 15, 2007 2:27:12 PM
Sanpete: People have tried to quantify it, but it's really, really hard to tease it out of other costs. I've seen estimates as high as 25% of testing can be attributed to CYA testing.
Studies have shown that people are more satisfied with their providers in direct proportion to the number of tests ordered. Doctors who want to keep their customers happy order a lot of tests. Besides that it's just plain easy to order one-size-fits-all "routine" tests or shot-gun tests. Try to separate those issues...you can't.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 3:09:07 PM
Unsurprisingly, i agree with a lot of what the above posters have said...
To mik, please refer to squid and jbean's posts on relative compensation. In addition, its pretty obvious that the control group for any comparison of US physician salaries should be those with similar educational levels and IQ's if one wants to attract American students to medicine rather than gamble on importing foreign docs of uncertain quality (look at their respective failure rates on board exams and nonrenewed contracts after the first year of residency).
In addition, below is the best study I could find in support of my above claims about the misplaced focus of this debate on medical compensation. Though obviously limited in its methodology (no standardization for quality of applicants, differential hours required in one's youth, etc), it will have to do for the present...
--Acad Med. 2002 Apr;77(4):312-9.Click here to read Links
The more things change: revisiting a comparison of educational costs and incomes of physicians and other professionals.
* Weeks WB,
* Wallace AE.
As to being a publicist for one's "guild," I am indeed a physician but not a member of the AMA in the interests of disclosure.
Posted by: vik | Feb 15, 2007 3:58:49 PM
Captain Toke, I'd appreciate a hard number for the cost of defensive medicine in the US. Ages ago I looked up the relevant article on Wikipedia, which quoted a pro-tort reform organization as putting a total figure of $50 billion a year. This compares with a waste of $477 according to Ezra, or a trillion if you take the difference between per capita health spending in the US and in France.
Fred, for all the anecdotes about wait times, you don't talk about averages. What's the average wait time for a life-saving procedure in the US, and what's the average wait time in Canada?
Everyone, the AMA does in fact control the supply of doctors, by demanding foreign doctors to jump through hoops to get certified. Even a physician with ten years' experience in Britain will have to go through another residency in the US, during which he'll get paid peanuts and work 24/7. Add the fact that the American immigration system makes it hard for skilled professionals to get in, and you have a very guild-like system.
Ezra, the US isn't subsidizing anything for the rest of the world. Companies choose to locate themselves in the US to avoid price controls; if the US joins the rest of the developed world in cracking down on inflated drug prices, it's likely prices in other countries will even go down, as companies have no large market to sell to at high prices.
JimPortland, the average American physician is $100,000 in debt at graduation. The average French physician is debt free, courtesy of state-funded education. And on top of that, education spending is actually higher in the US than in any other country but Switzerland at all levels. The University of Paris isn't any worse than Harvard; it just has a fraction of Harvard's operating costs.
So based on those observations, the most effective ways to reduce health spending are,
1. National health insurance modeled after the VA system, in order to reduce administrative spending;
2. European-style price controls, combined with a ban on direct-to-consumer advertising;
3. Governmental funding of college education for four years and of professional and graduate education for the normal number of years it takes to get a degree (e.g. 3 for law);
4. Removal of the AMA residency requirement for doctors who have had an equivalent experience in a different country.
Posted by: Alon Levy | Feb 15, 2007 5:21:04 PM
I really don't think the AMA is a major impediment to foreign docs practicing in the US. According to the AMA, about 1/4 of all practicing docs in the US received their training in other countries. See http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/211.html
Posted by: SteveH | Feb 15, 2007 5:58:50 PM
That doesn't mean anything. It may well be that if 40-year-old British physicians don't have to go back 15 years again to be allowed to practice in the US, this proportion will go from 1/4 to 1/2.
Posted by: Alon Levy | Feb 15, 2007 7:24:42 PM
Alon: A British trained doctor only needs to do a one year residency in most states (2 years in a few - but substantially less than "fifteen") and pass the licensing exams to be licensed in the U.S. MDs from other countries have the same state-determined requirements but also need to pass an English language test. Canadian training is equivalent to U.S. training and Canadian MDs can move freely to the U.S. The states rather than the AMA determine licensing requirements.
Perhaps education in this country is so expenive because teachers are overpaid? They are certainly paid more in this country than in France....
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 8:12:03 PM
the US isn't subsidizing anything for the rest of the world. Companies choose to locate themselves in the US to avoid price controls; if the US joins the rest of the developed world in cracking down on inflated drug prices, it's likely prices in other countries will even go down, as companies have no large market to sell to at high prices
I don't get this. It isn't where the companies are located; it's the sales here that subsidize prices elsewhere. A company based in Germany can sell here just as well as one based here.
The second part doesn't make sense either.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 15, 2007 9:08:40 PM
Perhaps education in this country is so expenive because teachers are overpaid? They are certainly paid more in this country than in France....
Again, that would be wrong. Once you control for the fact that teachers in the US need health insurance while teachers in other developed countries don't, American teachers are paid below first-world average.
A British trained doctor only needs to do a one year residency in most states (2 years in a few - but substantially less than "fifteen") and pass the licensing exams to be licensed in the U.S.
In certain cases it can go up to 4, I believe, and my "fifteen" comment was about the fact that 40-year-old doctors with kids are less likely to be able to stand the hours that 25-year-old residents work.
I don't get this. It isn't where the companies are located; it's the sales here that subsidize prices elsewhere. A company based in Germany can sell here just as well as one based here.
Well, there was a case a few years ago of a pharmaceutical company that moved its operations from France to the US to capitalize on the lack of price controls, or something like that.
Pharmaceuticals already have huge profit margins. So the US doesn't so much subsidize their operations elsewhere - they turn a profit in every country - but give them leverage to bargain: "The Americans are willing to pay us $400 a shot; why should we sell to you at $150?".
Posted by: Alon Levy | Feb 15, 2007 9:22:46 PM
"The Americans are willing to pay us $400 a shot; why should we sell to you at $150?"
I see your logic now. I wonder if that really works.
I think it's still likely that prices would go up elsewhere, just because they wouldn't be able to make anything close to the same profits overall otherwise.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 15, 2007 9:31:24 PM
I turned 40 the month before I finished residency. I imagine that even a Brit could tolerate the hours :) To be board certified in a specialty, a non-North American would have to finish an entire residency (length of which is controlled by the various specialties - not the AMA), but to be licensed, they only need one year in most states. When I was an intern there was a big name, British trained, Singaporean cancer researcher doing his one year of residency in our program so that he could be licensed and move his research to the U.S. He survived despite being a year or two older than me. The following year he was an attending oncologist.
In California teachers have good health care benefits and pension benefits (like French MDS, but unlike many self-employed/small-group American MDs), so no, they are paid more than French teachers. My remarks were tongue-in-cheek, because I don't believe that teachers are actually overpaid, I was just pointing out that you can't really compare salaries between countries. I have friends who are French MDs and they have a nice, upper-middle class lifestyle that is about the equivalent of their U.S. counterparts. I only know the professions of two people who live on my block. One is an oboe repairman (quite a coincidence since I play the oboe and that makes two oboists in a very small area) and the other is a machinist. I make a nice income albeit somewhat less than my non-physician husband, but I'm hardly wealthy and I certainly can not afford to live in a super-rich neighborhood.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 15, 2007 9:41:44 PM
Teachers do NOT make less money compared to EU when adjusted for health insurance costs. Thats a load of crap. We're talking salaries here, not benefits that include health insurance. Based on straight salary levels, teachers in the US get paid far higher than any other nation on Earth.
We spend more money on education than any other nation on Earth, and our outcomes are 10 times worse than any other nation. Yet the liberal reaction to this is to spend MORE money on education. Somebody explain taht logic to me.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 15, 2007 10:34:24 PM
I've got to call BS on some of ezra's factoids as well. Link says specialists in the US get paid 7 times more than primary care. Thats crap.
Average primary care doc in the USA gets about 140k according to the US Labor Dept. Specialists like surgeons average somewhere between 350k-450k. Thats NOT 7 times higher than primary care. Its about the same ratio as other nations.
Now, its absolutely true that docs in the USA make more than other nations but the discrepancy is at the specialist level, not the primary care docs. For example, primary care docs in Canada get paid about 115k per year, about 25k less than american docs. But canadian specialists average only about 170k or so, being MUCH MUCH cheaper than american specialists.
We should cut down on specialist salaries and leave primary care doc salaries alone. That will further steer med students into primary care. Reduce the discrepancy and it wont make as much sense to spend extra years in training going for the specialty. I think specialists should get paid maximum twice what a primary care doc gets. You do this, and the cost for american doctors compared to EU/Canada disappears.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 15, 2007 10:38:20 PM
OK now about doctor/patient ratios.
There is zero correlation between high doctor/patient ratio and cheaper healthcare. Healthcare is not a free market, adding more providers does NOT lower healthcare costs, it INCREASES THEM.
Take New York City for example. NYC has by far the highest doctor/patient ratio in teh world. Manhattan has a doctors clinic on every freaking corner. So we would expect doctors in NYC to make less than other areas, and for helathcare costs related to doctor expenditures to be lower in NYC than other areas, correct? WRONG ON BOTH COUNTS. Helathcare costs in NYC are among the highest in the nation.
Now as for the USA, we are in the top 10 in terms of doctor/patient ratio. Its an absolute myth to suggest that the USA is starved for doctors, our ratios compare quite favorably to everywhere else. Furthermore, the USA has more nurse practioners and PAs who write scrips than any other nation on earth. If you include their numbers, I bet you dollars to donuts the USA has the highest "provider/patient" ratio in the world by far. This is NOT a doctor-shortage problem.
So now we've proven the following:
1) USA has similar doctor/patient ratios as other nations
2) Increasing numbers of doctors will NOT decrease healthcare costs, it will INCREASE them.
3) USA has more providers per patient (including NPs and PAs) than any other nation on earth.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 15, 2007 10:44:20 PM
One more note on this then I'm done.
The AMA, once an all powerful organization circa 1950s, has all but lost its former political clout. Less than 30% of american docs belong to it today.
Contrary to popular opinion, the AMA has NO POWER TO:
1) Add or reduce med schools.
2) Increase or decrease foreign doctors coming to the USA
These issues are handled by Congress (which sets caps for the number of foreigners taken each year), and the states, which decide licensing issues on a state by state basis.
So lets talk about med schools. The LCME sets the minimum standards, and are a carbon copy of what the EU nations require. The printed list of standards is in the public domain. You give me 50 million dollars and I will open a med school in 3 years. The AMA will not send hitmen to take me out, as they have no power to stop or inhibit new schools from being added.
Its also a myth to suggest that no new med schools are being built. There are currently 25+ new medical schools either added in the past 5 years, currently being constructed, or planned in the next 5 years. This includes both DO and MD programs. The list of these new programs is:
NEW MEDICAL SCHOOLS/BRANCH CAMPUSES THAT HAVE OFFICIALLY OPENED
MD - University of Hawaii-Kakaako - 2006
DO - Touro/Las Vegas - 2005
DO - PCOM/Atlanta - 2005
MD - University of Miami/FAU joint program - 2004
MD - Cleveland Clinic/Lerner - 2004
DO - LECOM/Bradenton - 2004
MD - Florida State University - 2002
DO - VCOM - 2002
NEW MEDICAL SCHOOLS THAT WILL OPEN SOON
MD - Florida International Univ - 2008
MD - Univ Central Florida - 2008
MD - Touro/NJ - 2008
DO - Touro (Harlem NY) - 2008
DO - Pacific Northwest (Yakima WA) - 2007
MD - Michigan State University (Grand Rapids MI) - 2008
MD - University of Arizona (Phoenix AZ) - 2007
DO - AT Still University (Mesa AZ) - 2007
DO - Lincoln Memorial/Debusk (Harrogate TN) - 2007
NEW MEDICAL SCHOOLS/BRANCH CAMPUSES THAT ARE IN PLANNING
MD - University of Cal Merced (Merced CA)
MD - University of Cal Riverside (Riverside CA)
MD - University of Texas El Paso (El Paso TX)
DO - Vista (Colorado)
MD - OHSU (Eugene OR)
DO - MSUCOM (Detroit MI)
DO - Barry University (Miami FL)
MD - CUNY/Hunter College (NY, NY)
MD - Virginia Tech/Carilion (private, Roanoke VA) http://www.carilion.com/ContentStore...%20Release.pdf
Edit (6/05/06): BarryU in Miami recently announced plans for a new DO school
Edit (9/14/06): AT Still announced plans to join AOA application cycle
Edit (9/14/06): Lincoln/Debusk announced plans to join AOA application cycle
Edit (9/30/06): CUNY/Hunter announces plans for a new med school in next 5 years
Edit (1/07/07): VT/Carilion announce plans for first privately operated MD school, scheduled for 2010
Total count of new/expanding programs: 26
Estimated increase in number of graduates per year: 3750
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 15, 2007 10:49:47 PM
Currently, over 50% of all applicants to medical school get accepted somewhere. This is about the same ratio as in other nations. AGain its a pure myth to suggest that the USA has some ridiculously high threshold for entry into the medical profession. Its pretty much the same as other nations.
In terms of foreign docs, the US takes more FMGs than all other nations COMBINED. I dont want to hear anybody bitch about how hard it is for FMGs to come to the states either. Its much easier to come to the USA as a foreign doc than it is to get into Canada or the EU.
American docs if they wnat to go to the EU have a ridiculous number of hoops they hafe to jump thru, many more than a euro doc trying to come to the states. So lets stop crying for the poor FMGs. They have a better deal in the USA than any other nation.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 15, 2007 10:53:20 PM
Its much easier to come to the USA as a foreign doc than it is to get into Canada or the EU.
Crap.
Posted by: Alon Levy | Feb 15, 2007 11:53:02 PM
"Aha, I wondered why the noted English Right-Wing Troll, Tim Worstall had turned up on this blog. It's for the healthcare debates. Watch out for the song and dance where he tries to convince you that the Swedish system is a really good example of privatisation"
You sorely misunderstand any points I've made about the Swedish health system. I have compared it with the UK's NHS: favourably, too, but in the context of pointing out that it is run by the Swedish counties, not centrally by the national Government.
My comments on the health care debate in the US are really aimed at correcting errors (I'm perfectly happy for there to be tax financed health care BTW). For example, there was a piece in the NYT just recently extolling single payer health care systems and using France as an example. Except France is not a single payer system.
Paul Krugman often points to the VA as a good model that should be rolled out right across America. But organisations don't scale that way: a system with 250,000 employees is very different from one with 13.3 million.
Above all, if you guys really do want to change the health care system in the US the one thing you don't want to copy is the near Stalinist bureaucracy, the central planning, of our own dear NHS. It doesn't even work for us, with 1.3 million people working for the system, and it certainly won't work for you, with 10 times that number working in health care.
Posted by: Tim Worstall | Feb 16, 2007 5:09:19 AM
Here's a question for you:
We see lots of foreign doctors and nurses immigrate to the United States. How many American doctors and nurses go to foreign countries to practice?
Kinda says it all, don't you think?
Posted by: Fred Jones | Feb 16, 2007 8:52:52 AM
Hey before anybody takes Joe Blow too seriously, its worth questioning whether his goal is to improve american health care, or to inflict suffering on sergments of the society he considers to be sub-human.
Why do I say this? Because he said this.
"Count me as one of the people who gets a good laugh out of inmates getting raped."
Posted by: joe blow | Aug 2, 2006 9:54:28 PM
Does he also get a good laugh out of poor people dying of preventable illness?
Repeat as necessary.
Posted by: RW | Feb 16, 2007 10:17:30 AM
Joe Blow's arguments aren't arguments based on his motives. They have to be evaluated on the basis of their evidence and reasoning.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 16, 2007 12:00:04 PM
Joe Blow, I said with the exception of Osteopathic schools. I can't find an original source for that list you posted of new Med schools, but latest I saw on allopathic schools said the school in FL was the first new one to open in 20 years. That list seems to pop up in blog comment sections a lot.
Posted by: SteveH | Feb 16, 2007 12:18:54 PM
He has forfeited his membership in any discursive community that is premised on a shared acceptance of human dignity.
It is more important to sanction rape advocacy than to engage his statistics. I do not plan to respond to anything else he says other than to point out that he has chosen to weigh in in favor of the act of rape.
You shouldn't either.
Posted by: RW | Feb 16, 2007 12:23:14 PM
RW, I don't know Joe Blow, don't know what he really thinks about rape, and generally don't refuse to talk with people even with outrageous views.
Joe's list of new med schools appears to be several years old, and a bit of checking shows it to be rather half-baked.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 16, 2007 1:25:01 PM
There's outrageous and then there is pro-rape.
Why should we doubt that he means what he says? Fred said something that sounded like it was pro-prison-rape once, but when he was confronted he made clear that he supports suppressing the phenomenon. Toke is clearly satire, but even he makes clear that he is against it.
If Joe Blow wants to make clear that he doesn't think rape is good, he can do so. Until then, he should be chased off the fucking site.
"Count me as one of the people who gets a good laugh out of inmates getting raped."
Posted by: joe blow | Aug 2, 2006 9:54:28 PM
Posted by: RW | Feb 16, 2007 1:41:32 PM
Which is to say, assuming FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT that rape is an appropriate subject about which to be tongue in cheek, he at least needs to learn to mark his irony. (Toke is a good example of someone who effectively marks irony: when he is done with irony he says "seriously". He calls himself "Captain Toke". He mocks his opponents' views of him with blatant hyperbole, etc...). As recent posts on the prison rape threads show, there really are people who are willing to defend prison rape. Assuming he really doesn't approve of prison rape, he is taking the risk that others who do will feel emboldened.
Posted by: RW | Feb 16, 2007 1:52:39 PM
Kinda says it all, don't you think?
That in order to pay off the debts accrued at a US medical school, it's in the best interest of graduates to work within the US system, with its pay-off-your-loans wage structure? Yes.
Anything else? No, Jim. Sorry to undermine your facile one-liner.
(Oh, and never mind that certain bits of the Anglophone world's healthcare system are attracting American migrants, such as mental health, where the relative provision and pay structure is quite different. A US-minted PhD clinical psychologist who wants to work in public health has little chance of paying off tuition loans while working in the US.)
Above all, if you guys really do want to change the health care system in the US the one thing you don't want to copy is the near Stalinist bureaucracy, the central planning, of our own dear NHS.
That's not on the table, though, is it, Tim? So jog along to the Emerald City with your strawman. Neither is it the policy of any serious UK political party (nor the Tories) to advance NHS reform along the lines of the US system. That healthcare policy review a few years ago went on lots of trips abroad to see how Johnny Foreigner did things, but even the Tories weren't stupid enough to seek inspiration from the Americans.
Admittedly, the UK and US demonstrate a similar problem, in that once you've chosen a path -- the former born out of the exigencies of the post-war environment, the latter born out of the lobbying might of various vested interests -- it's hard to make radical structural reform. But it was hard for Nye Bevan to make radical structural reform, too.
Posted by: pseudonymous in nc | Feb 16, 2007 2:14:57 PM
Sanpete: I posted a couple of articles above about new medical schools (and I'm an atheist, liberal, Democrat, and anti-rape, so I must be telling the truth!) I hate to agree with Joe Blow, but he is providing verifiable evidence. UC Riverside accepts its first class in 2012, UC Merced is still being kicked around as a potential site. I have little interest in non-California education, but I have heard that Florida just brought another medical school on-line.
When the economy is bad medical school applications rise and about 50% of applicants are accepted. When the economy is good medical school applications fall and the percentage of accepted applicants rises. There is plenty of easily googleable data available. Many FMGs immigrate to the U.S. and data about those numbers is readily available.
There is really no evidence that supports the claim that physicians are well paid because of some sort of cabal that restricts supply. Physicians have a lot of training, work a lot of -- frequently crappy -- hours, carry a lot of responsibility and get paid at a rate that is not out of line when compared to other American professionals. European docs don't have to pay billing services 20% of every dollar in income in order to squeeze payments out of insurance companies, European docs get education, pensions, and health care paid by the state (and often housing), European docs sometimes have fewer years of education, but that's all mostly irrelevant. Physician compensation in the U.S. is still only about 10-11% of health care spending. We would have to work for free to make a double digit reduction in the percentage cost of health care! It's like saying that if carpenters were paid less, real estate would cost less. Meanwhile, the CEO of the insurance company United Health Care made $1.4B (or $1.8B according to NPR last night -- but what's $400M either way?), or roughly 10,000 times what the average primary care doc made last year.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 16, 2007 3:04:52 PM
JB, some of the items on the list check out; some don't. I didn't mean to disagree with the idea behind it, only to point out that evidence he gave is only partly true. Here's a discussion of the list from several years ago when it was complied by who knows who.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 16, 2007 3:13:24 PM
Sanpete: As "MacGyver" points out in the forum you cite, all it takes to open a medical school is money. The AMA (which I actually detest) has no control over the matter what so ever. The reason that there haven't been any medical schools opened since the 1970s is not the wicked AMA, but rather then wicked GOP. My state has cut back on higher education substantially since proposition 13 passed in 1976. The federal government has also done its best to cut down on education spending and medical schools, not surprisingly, are a big, big ticket item. Oral Roberts University opened one in the 1980s and closed it a few years later due to cost, not a cabal of evil physicians.
Posted by: J Bean | Feb 16, 2007 6:42:34 PM
So you dont believe my med school list huh?
OK, fine then smartypants, you tell me which schools you think are bogus and I will provide an internet link to PROVE my list is accurate.
I doubt there will be any takers on this. The med school list is easily verifiable.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 16, 2007 7:04:58 PM
So you do not believe its easier for a foreign doc to practice inthe states as opposed to Canada/EU? Once more I am forced to reveal the foolishness of those who know not what they speak of.
http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2004/08/doctors.html
"Khanahmadi came to Vancouver in September 2001. Because his English is flawless, he aced the language tests—written and oral—that foreign-trained doctors must pass to practise in this country. He also passed a series of Canadian medical exams. This year Khanahmadi applied for a residency position under the Canadian Resident Matching Service (CaRMS). He got two interviews but no position. Last year British Columbia had only six positions set aside in family practice for immigrant doctors."
So, lets compare:
1) Both US and Canada require FMGs to take licensing exams and english language tests.
2) Both US and Canada require FMGs/foreign docs to complete a new residency in that location
Now, here's the difference:
1) US allows FMGs to compete for any open residency slot against american medical grads. Now, given the choice, most residency programs will choose AMGs, however theoretically FMGs have a shot at every residency slot
2) Canada on the other hand, has strict quotas in place for residency slots that are "open" to FMGs. Less than 1% of residency slots are open to FMGs in CAnada. In the USA, 100% of residnecy slots are open for competition.
Thats why Johns Hopkins, one of the best hospitals in the world, accepted over 15 FMGs in their new intern class last year. Thats why almost 50% of family practice residency slots in the USA go to FMGs. You wont find anything remotely like it in Canada because FMGs are locked out of the process.
So once again, dont speak up on this subject on which you know nothing about.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 16, 2007 7:11:51 PM
Edit: post above should say 10%, not 1% residnecy slots in canada open to FMGs.
The bottom line is that the USA is MUCH MUCH easier for a FMG to relocate to than Canada/EU. The doctor cited in the article said as much, that he could easily move to the states and get any number of residency positions in family practice. But Canada has arcane quotas on the nubmer of FMGs they take.
Posted by: joe blow | Feb 16, 2007 7:15:15 PM
JBean, again, I've said nothing about the AMA, and haven't disputed your point.
Joe, I just gave a link you can start with.
Posted by: Sanpete | Feb 16, 2007 7:16:17 PM
"But Canada has arcane quotas on the nubmer of FMGs they take."
I am sure Canada/UK knows exactly what they are doing here. They know that more MDs means more care and more costs. They ration their care, thus limit the number of native MDs and foreign MDs.
Posted by: squid | Feb 16, 2007 10:05:29 PM
"That's not on the table, though, is it, Tim? So jog along to the Emerald City with your strawman."
When Paul Krugman seriously holds up the VA as an example to follow, then yes, that is exactly what is being suggested. So it isn't a strawman at all.
Posted by: Tim Worstall | Feb 17, 2007 7:03:01 AM
For a sensible healthcare and health insurance reform alternative to a single payer system or the current system that would probably be a good fit with our culture, see here. A financing mechanism that combines a health care payroll tax and a dedicated value added tax would be preferable, in my view, to a value added tax alone, but, personally, I would sign onto this either way.
Posted by: BC | Feb 17, 2007 8:08:13 PM
antibiotics antibiotics
hair loss hair loss
herbal remedy herbal remedy
colon cleansing colon cleansing
acomplia without prescription acomplia weight loss
Posted by: Online | May 26, 2007 3:54:38 PM
cheap@giag.com
Posted by: generic viagra | Jul 27, 2007 7:52:29 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: cheap viagra | Jul 27, 2007 9:42:55 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: discount viagra | Jul 27, 2007 11:21:37 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: buy generic viagra | Jul 28, 2007 1:08:45 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: buy cheap viagra | Jul 28, 2007 4:43:39 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: order online viagra | Jul 28, 2007 6:22:00 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: online viagra | Jul 28, 2007 8:08:09 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: prescription viagra | Jul 28, 2007 9:38:04 AM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: buy cialis | Jul 28, 2007 2:37:35 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cheap cialis | Jul 28, 2007 6:52:26 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cialis discount | Jul 28, 2007 9:52:30 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cheapest cialis | Jul 29, 2007 2:50:47 AM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: discount cialis | Jul 29, 2007 4:26:49 AM
cheap@levitra.com
Posted by: buy levitra | Jul 29, 2007 6:05:26 AM
cheap@levitra.com
Posted by: generic levitra | Jul 29, 2007 9:32:28 AM
cheap@levitra.com
Posted by: order levitra | Jul 29, 2007 11:18:54 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: buy viagra | Jul 29, 2007 1:09:03 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: generic viagra | Jul 29, 2007 2:51:32 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: cheap viagra | Jul 29, 2007 4:27:13 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: purchase viagra | Jul 29, 2007 9:43:07 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: buy cheap viagra | Jul 29, 2007 11:22:09 PM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: online viagra | Jul 30, 2007 2:48:51 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: prescription viagra | Jul 30, 2007 4:21:14 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: viagra discount | Jul 30, 2007 5:58:35 AM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: buy cialis | Jul 30, 2007 9:23:03 AM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: generic cialis | Jul 30, 2007 11:27:40 AM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cheap cialis | Jul 30, 2007 1:20:22 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cialis discount | Jul 30, 2007 4:00:41 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cialis soft | Jul 30, 2007 9:52:58 PM
Listed above are links to weblogs that reference Buy Viagra Online:
Posted by: viagra online | Aug 2, 2007 7:42:18 AM
cheap@viagra.com
Posted by: viagra cheap | Aug 10, 2007 5:53:07 AM
Posted by: Mikeeee | Aug 12, 2007 1:50:35 PM
liqingchao 07年09月03日
google排名
google排名
wow gold
wow gold
powerleveling
powerleveling
wow gold
wow gold
powerleveling
powerleveling
power leveling
power leveling
wow powerleveling
wow powerleveling
wow power leveling
wow power leveling
wow power level
wow power level
world of warcraft powerleveling
world of warcraft powerleveling
world of warcraft power leveling
world of warcraft power leveling
Crm
Crm
光盘刻录
光盘刻录
光盘制作
光盘制作
光盘印刷
光盘印刷
呼叫中心
呼叫中心
客户关系管理
客户关系管理
北京月嫂
北京月嫂
rolex replica
rolex replica
china tour
china tour
hongkong hotel
hongkong hotel
beijing tour
beijing tour
北京律师
北京律师
礼品
礼品
礼品公司
礼品公司
会议礼品
会议礼品
商务礼品
商务礼品
保洁
保洁
保洁公司
保洁公司
翻译公司
翻译公司
上海翻译公司
上海翻译公司
北京翻译公司
北京翻译公司
北京搬家公司
北京搬家公司
鼓风机
风机
风机
货架
红外测温仪
红外测温仪
超声波测厚仪
超声波测厚仪
超声波探伤仪
超声波探伤仪
频闪仪
频闪仪
涂层测厚仪
涂层测厚仪
电火花检测仪
电火花检测仪
google排名
集团电话
集团电话
网站设计
网站设计
多媒体
监控
监控
搬家公司
搬家公司
条码打印机
条码打印机
Posted by: wslmwps | Sep 3, 2007 3:21:54 AM
I think the comment that few if any US medics move to other countries compared to foreign medics moving to the US says more about Americans as a nation, rather than the medical system. Only something like 7% of Americans own a passport, very few of you, percentage wise travel outside the US, why should medics be any different?
Posted by: P.Osborne | Sep 5, 2007 3:50:36 PM
cheap@cialis.com
Posted by: cialis soft | Sep 6, 2007 11:53:48 AM
maple story
maple story mesos
maple story cheats
maple story meso
maple story hacks
maple story items
maple story guides
cheap maple story
buy maple story mesos
rf online
rf online cp
rf online currency
rf online dalant
rf online disena
buy rf online currency
buy rf online cp
buy rf online dalant
Posted by: maple story | Sep 11, 2007 3:49:20 AM
EVE ISK
EQ2 Gold
FFXI Gil
Guild Wars Gold
Lineage 2 Adena
Runescape Money
wow power leveling
wow gold
cheap wow gold
World of Warcraft Gold
wow power leveling
EVE ISK
EQ2 Gold
EQ2 plat
everquest 2 gold
FFXI Gil
Guild Wars Gold
Lineage 2 Adena
Maple Story Mesos
Runescape Money
Runescape Gold
runescape items
SilkRoad Gold
wow gold
warcraft gold
cheap wow gold
wow gold
warcraft gold
LOTRO Gold
wow power leveling
cheap wow gold
wow gold
cheap wow gold
wow gold
runescape gold
runescape money
runescape items
cheap runescape money
cheap runescape gold
wow power leveling
wow powerleveling
world of warcraft power leveling
wow power leveling
wow powerleveling
world of warcraft power leveling
wow power leveling
wow powerleveling
world of warcraft power leveling
wow power leveling
wow powerleveling
world of warcraft power leveling
ffxi gil
guild wars gold
eve isk
Final Fantasy XI Gil
ro Zeny
wow gold
cheap wow gold
cheap wow gold
eq2 gold
eq2 plat
everquest 2 gold
lotro gold
lotro power leveling
lotro powerleveling
Posted by: azdsf | Sep 19, 2007 2:51:20 AM


