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September 11, 2006
Nazi Ideas
I'm with Jane Galt on this one: Not everything the Nazis touched was bad. Hitler was a vegetarian. Volkswagen is a perfectly good car company. Universal health care is a perfectly good idea. Indeed, the Nazis actually did a pretty good job increasing economic growth and improving standards of living (they were, many think, the first Keynesians, adopting the strategy even before Keynes had come up with it), pushing Germany out of a depression and back into expansion. Unfortunately, they also set out to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jews. People shouldn't do that.
Update Sigh. Let's try to be clearer, then. The problem with the Nazis was that they were genocidal white supremacists with an appetite for continental hegemony. To invoke them in order to tar, by association, privatization, or "appeasement," or socialist policies, or other policies that were not related to their murderous crimes is a noxious debate tactic that should be widely and rapidly condemned.
September 11, 2006 | Permalink
Comments
"Also"? Don't you think the economic "expansion" was sort of integrally related with the conquering-Europe thing?
Posted by: Tyrone Slothrop | Sep 11, 2006 3:25:15 PM
Volkswagen is a perfectly good car company.
If you make your living repairing car electrical systems, it's the best.
Posted by: calling all toasters | Sep 11, 2006 3:36:56 PM
Don't you think the economic "expansion" was sort of integrally related with the conquering-Europe thing?
And even more integrally related with the whole slave-labor camp thing.
Also, they 'solved' unemployment by making it virtually impossible for women to work--by legislating the whole Kinder-Kirche-Küche thing--thus opening up lots of jobs for men.
But yeah, your point is well-taken; any given idea should be evaluated on its own merits, apart from whether it was adopted by people who also came up with some of the worst ideas in the history of humanity.
Posted by: Tom Hilton | Sep 11, 2006 3:37:53 PM
If you make your living repairing car electrical systems, it's the best.
Don't they have to buy all of their parts from Ford thanks to some consent decree?
Posted by: Nicholas Beaudrot | Sep 11, 2006 3:46:18 PM
Yeah, they made good ovens.
Stupid post.
Posted by: david mizner | Sep 11, 2006 3:55:23 PM
Hitler was NOT a vegetarian.
Posted by: Aug | Sep 11, 2006 4:01:21 PM
Preternaturally idiotic post.
One, Hitler was no vegetarian, and this presumes vegetarianism is some sort of unalloyed good, which I think may still be in dispute.
Two, Volkswagen was not a car company, it was yet another way for the Nazi state to fleece the poor and working class. Have you not read Shirer, or did you just forget it all?
Three, aggressive Keynesians (i.e., not FDR hemmed in on all sides by his right wing) know how to get out of depressions. Big fucking whoop; what this has to do with the Nazis, I have no idea.
So, one pure counterfactual, one mere lie and one utter misinterpretation.
Perhaps your worst post ever.
A hint: when you agree with Galt, check your facts twice before posting, then check again, then hit delete anyway.
Posted by: wcw | Sep 11, 2006 4:15:22 PM
Oh, and full disclosure: both my grandfathers lost their jobs when the Nazis took over. Perhaps I get too personal. Luckily, one was fired for having been a monarchist who actually enforced the anti-Nazi laws as an Austrian policeman in the thirtied, and the other was a mere, subhuman slav medical doctor outside of Poland, so neither was gassed.
Great, huh? Neither of my grandfathers was gassed, just both fired and prevented from working in their fields of expertise. Up Nazism! Up Jane Galt!
Posted by: wcw | Sep 11, 2006 4:18:39 PM
Um...I think Ezra's point was not so much 'the Nazis did some good stuff, too' as 'the simple fact that an idea was implemented by the Nazis does not in itself make it a bad idea'. (E.g., how many times have we all heard arguments against gun control using Nazi Germany?) I think Ezra was a little sloppy in incorporating the former in order to make the latter point, but I think the latter point is entirely reasonable.
Posted by: Tom Hilton | Sep 11, 2006 4:25:55 PM
That was Galt's post. Her post was stupid, too, but given her oeuvre, pretty solid.
Ezra's was as batshit insane as anything he has ever written. I let slide his insistence the Nazis were for universal healthcare (because, compared to the US, I guess it looks like that). But the rest ranged from incoherent to simply untrue, and he needs to be called on it.
Ezra's was a bad, throwaway post. A post about the Nazis can never be a throwaway post, much less a bad one. I feel completely justified in calling him out. If anything, I feel bad for not using words like "fuckwit" and "jerk".
Now, I know the history pretty fucking well, for reasons I delineate above. Go on, bring the reasons Nazis weren't all bad.
I'm waiting.
Posted by: wcw | Sep 11, 2006 4:31:27 PM
I'd sheathe your extraordinary level of outrage here, WCW. No one is calling the nazis good (and if you imply otherwise, you're way, way, out of line). My point is simple, and I'm surprised it's in dispute. Like Jane says, it's totally, batshit insane to try and discredit policies because they are somehow connected to the nazis. This goes for everything from privatization to appeasement. The Nazis committed some horrific atrocities, but we've turned them into evil versions of King Midas: able to turn everything they touched noxious.
There's a specificity to their crimes and the historical moment in which they were created, and when we lose sight of that for momentary partisan advantage, we make a massive mistake. So you're welcome to brag about your historical knowledge some more (I, by the way, had plenty of family in the Holocaust, so I guess we can get into some ghoulish contest over it if you really want), but it's missing the point. The problem with the Nazis was that they were genocidal conquerors with a white supremacist vision. It was not that they privatized public services.
As for the Hitler/vegetarian thing, you guys sure?
Posted by: Ezra | Sep 11, 2006 4:44:18 PM
I have a cousin who did some research on Nazi economic policies. From my understanding (though I've never talked about it more than casually with him), while the Nazis did, indeed, restore full employment, for workers who did have jobs, compensation often fell, as unions were suppressed and such.
Of course, in a country in which vast swathes of the population are actually unemployed, I think there's a reasonable case for economic policies that reduce compensation to already-employed workers to get the unemployed ones jobs, if getting the jobless jobs can't be done without cutting already-employed worker compensation, but I don't think Nazi economics lead to the unalloyed prosperity some believe.
Posted by: Julian Elson | Sep 11, 2006 4:48:34 PM
Like Jane says, it's totally, batshit insane to try and discredit policies because they are somehow connected to the nazis.
Yeah, that's wrong. If something seems to be a core principle of Nazism, people might want to give it a more thofough analysis than they might otherwise do. That seems like a pretty obvious step to take: people with horrific judgment are more likely to make horrific choices. Most of our policy choices are best-guesses about a world we don't understand very well; if the person guessing is a Nazi, and is guessing the way he is guessing because he's a Nazi, look hard at what he's doing.
Of course Jane wants to redeem the Nazis' judgment. Once we grant that, we'll more or less have to redeem everyone else's judgment, including the Southern Republicans. There's a hard plan to see.
Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Sep 11, 2006 4:53:03 PM
I am sorry for your family's losses, Ezra. As I said, mine was lucky: some were imprisoned, some lost their jobs, but none was killed.
Anyhow, one, yes, Shicklgruber ate meat. You have to read through the whole thing, as with Shirer. "Hitler was indeed, for the most part, a vegetarian — though he did occasionally allow himself a dish of meat." You also elide the critique that vegetarianism is some unalloyed good, but let's ignore that.
Two, I am gratified you drop my criticisms of your "points" on VW, growth and healthcare. I'll leave them lay if you will.
Three, phrase it that way in the first place and I don't flip out. Which is to say -- phrase it that way in the first place.
Where the hell did VW come from, anyway? Have you not read Shirer? It's a great, great book if you haven't.
Posted by: wcw | Sep 11, 2006 4:53:14 PM
Don't forget the autobahn and Leni Riefenstahl too.
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"I guess we can get into some ghoulish contest over it if you really want"
I'd buy a ticket to watch...
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I think this is all missing the point. It's quite true that it's wrong to say everything associated with the Nazis is bad due to the association.
But I am sympathetic to the argument that anything Jane Galt is in favor of must be wrong.
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And along these lines, I highly recommend folks check out The Architecture of Doom over at Netflix. It makes a convincing argument that the true problem of Hitler and the Nazis comes down to really poor aesthetic taste.
Posted by: Petey | Sep 11, 2006 4:55:35 PM
On the vegetarian thing, I hardly know a vegetarian who doesn't occasionally slip. As for Shirer, I have no idea who s/he is, or what book you're referencing. As for the rest, I clarified the post.
Obviously, Hitler is bad. One would hope we could have these discussions without constantly reaffirming that. Growing up in Hebrew School, we used to say Hitler Nemach Shama (spelling may be off, of course). The rough translation, as I remember, was "may his name be erased from history." That seemed incorrect to me. Rather, we need to extract the right lessons. When we overuse the Nazi card, we cheapen it. When it's deployed opportunistically, it's weakened. That's how Nazis are central to the debate in Iraq but the world stands by as Africa perishes from AIDS, and Darfur rips itself apart. It's heartbreaking, grotesque, stuff, and I think part of the reason is that Nazi analogies have become the purview of warmongers and antistatists.
Posted by: Ezra | Sep 11, 2006 5:02:20 PM
there is a good metaphor i heard used once, about looking for good things in horrific circumstances...would be like abraham lincoln's wife at the booth theater, saying, "well, the play was very good."
....adolph hitler apparently liked dogs and was kind to eva braun...charles manson probably was nice to leslie van houten. small acts of kindness for people who spread evil and suffering like a bottle of spilled ink in the universe.
the best thing adolph hitler did was to awaken us to the dangers of unchecked and unbridled evil.
Posted by: jacqueline | Sep 11, 2006 5:04:05 PM
I'm with you on this being a stupid debate tactic that we see way too much. There are plenty of X's that reveal the dumbness of the "The Nazis did X, therefore we shouldn't do X" inference. (X=breathing, for instance.)
Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Sep 11, 2006 5:05:06 PM
"As for Shirer, I have no idea who s/he is, or what book you're referencing."
Posted by: Petey | Sep 11, 2006 5:06:10 PM
Ezra, nothing, in my mind, is sacred, and of course not everything the Nazis touched was evil, but you make it sound as if there was no connection between their economic policies and its totalitarianism; your phrasing suggests that if only they hadn't set out to conquer the world and kill Jews, they would have been not too bad. Look at what you wrote: "the Nazis actually did a pretty good job increasing economic growth and improving standards of living, rocketing Germany out of a depression and back into expansion. Unfortunately, they also set out to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jews."
Standards of living? Talk about a reductive, clinical use of that term.
In any case, on the anniversary of 9-11, we should discuss the good things about Al Qaeda:
1. opposition to Saddam Hussein
Hmm. Can't think of anything else.
Posted by: david mizner | Sep 11, 2006 5:06:43 PM
"There are plenty of X's that reveal the dumbness of the "The Nazis did X, therefore we shouldn't do X" inference. (X=breathing, for instance.)"
You're pro-breathing, Neil? Appeaser!
Posted by: Petey | Sep 11, 2006 5:07:16 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Third-Reich-William-Shirer/dp/06717286 You can get it used for two or three dollars. Do, if you haven't, and read carefully. It is fabulous journalism and great documentary history. If I were a journalist, William Shirer would be a hero. Hell, he's a hero period.
I wish you had phrased your post this way in the first place, instead of with throwaway comments. I think the one about VW pushed me over the top. Investment analysis is my business, and the idea that the '30s VW was a "car company" is simply laughable. I am pretty unsure that the appropriate opprobrium heaped on Nazi Germany gets us to Darfur, but I am willing to listen.
Maybe in something other than a throwaway post next time, though, huh?
Posted by: wcw | Sep 11, 2006 5:11:01 PM
David: Isn't that precisely the point? If the Nazis hadn't done evil things, they wouldn't have been evil? And so we should have a clear-eyed conception of when they were monsters, but not pollute the rest of our discourse with references that don't make any sense?
And by the way, I spent 9/11 talking about he we've lost the war in Afghanistan, so I'm not that far off from your joke...
Posted by: Ezra | Sep 11, 2006 5:11:34 PM
"the best thing adolph hitler did was to awaken us to the dangers of unchecked and unbridled evil."
I'd argue that Hitler's gift to the world was discrediting racism in the Anglosphere. De-colonialism and civil rights would have been much more difficult to accomplish had not WWII forced the Allies to grapple with the logical extreme of racism.
Posted by: Petey | Sep 11, 2006 5:14:15 PM
Yeah, I guess I'll be more careful. On the other hand, I sort of figured my readership would simply assume I wasn't a neonazi...
Posted by: Ezra | Sep 11, 2006 5:14:43 PM
