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April 26, 2006
Brave New Economy, With Such Immobility In It
This post of Andrew Sullivan's reminds me of a point I've been meaning to make for awhile now. Memory jogged by a book on world opinions towards America, he rhapsodizes, "twenty-one years ago, six weeks after arriving here, I wrote to tell my parents: no offense, but I've found a home. Two key characteristics that distinguish Americans are religious belief and the notion that the individual is responsible for his own destiny." True enough. Though, it's worth saying that the Middle East is pretty heavy on religious belief, and Andy never seems too sold on that. In any case, this is going to be sort of wonky, but bear with, it's important stuff.
The Center for American Progress just released a comprehensive study of economic mobility and income volatility. And, according to its data, Andy's right about the American lack of fatalism, the belief in opportunity and mobility. When asked if people get rewarded for their effort, 61 percent of Americans agreed, versus 49 percent of Canadians, 33 percent of the British, and 23 percent of the French (weirdly, the Philippines win this one, with 63 percent agreeing). But of all these societies (save the Philippines), America is one of the least mobile, which is to say the least dependent on hard work rather than social station. In Denmark, the relationship between your parent's income and yours is 15% percent or so. In Canada, it's 19% percent. In France, it's 41 percent. And in America, it's 47 percent. The only country more hidebound and hierarchal is Andy's native England (50 percent), also the country most closely approximating the American economic model.
As it is, if you're born in the lowest income quintile, you have a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent. If you're born rich, you've a 22 percent shot at remaining there. For the middle class, hard work and productivity have begun to count far less. In 2003 and 2004, years when the GDP saw strong growth, the median household was no more upwardly mobile than in 1990-91, during a deep recession. Think about that for a second: inequality has reached such a height that the average household is actually worse off during today's expansion than yesterday's recession.
There's been a serious increase in downward mobility, too, with only 13 percent of families seeing $20,000 (in real terms) loss during the 1990-91 recession, while nearly 17 percent experienced such a drop during the 2003-04 expansion. Households in the top 10 percent have, by contrast, seen a reduction in downward mobility during the same period. And while it used to be the case that you could combat stagnation through hard work, even that's dying out. Households where the adults worked more than 40 hours a week were able, during 1990-91 and 1997-98 able to translate their labor into upward mobility. Now, the correlation has disappeared.
Americans may believe that hard work ends up offering great rewards, but the data shows that that's simply not the case. Remember that next time you hear some conservative flack -- maybe one named Tony Snow? -- trumpeting the economy's underreported strength. Why should folks appreciate a musclebound economy if it's using those biceps to pummel the working class?
Cross-posted from Tapped, because I think this important.
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Comments
As it is, if you're born in the lowest income quintile, you have a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent. If you're born rich, you've a 22 percent shot at remaining there.
This is misleading. The issue is not how many change stations, but can it be done through hard work. *THAT* is the issue.
There are tons of reasons why people don't aspire to be better than they are. Lots of folks just don't have the desire to change through hard work. Others are trapped, not by our society, but by their own culture. Others will take it, if it's easy.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 26, 2006 4:01:06 PM
Right, which the data on working extra hours specifically contradicts.
Households where the adults worked more than 40 hours a week were able, during 1990-91 and 1997-98 able to translate their labor into upward mobility. Now, the correlation has disappeared.
The point here is that it cannot be done through hard work, at least not reliably, and certainly not without an enormous amount of luck. Read the whole piece before you fly off the handle in comments.
Posted by: Ezra | Apr 26, 2006 4:05:41 PM
"The issue is not how many change stations, but can it be done through hard work. *THAT* is the issue."
So you're arguing that Americans are less motivated than people of other nationalities? This stuff can be measured, you know.
Posted by: pantomimeHorse | Apr 26, 2006 4:07:56 PM
Stalinism ever and always admits no fact to trump the party line. Our interpid interlocutor is in the position of being theologically unable to refer to actual numbers.
By the way, thanks for singing the anecdote-is-not-data chorus so promptly. It was a beautiful thing to see.
Posted by: wcw | Apr 26, 2006 4:24:55 PM
I think there's several reasons for the data, none of which have anything to do with actual obstacles to those who are really willing to work at changing their status.
See, lots of people just don't value the family enough. As the bedrock of society, it is important to have a strong family, one where the dad works and the mom stays home in order to impart values to the children. Many poor families refuse to do this, with mom and dad both working full time and the kids being raised by someone else. Why should the kids grow up into responsible adults if their parents aren't taking responsibility for them?
Another key factor is the laziness of many poor people. There are actually families that expect the government to help them with things like food or money for heating oil, when they have 2 able-bodied adults able to work outside the home and only one actually is. I don't see why it should be so hard for poor women to go ahead and shoulder their fair share of the burden - and don't get me started on the single welfare queens that want the government to pay them to stay home with their kids!
Culture, of course, plays heavily into this. It may be uncomfortable to read this, but the whites in this country come from a culture that values hard work. That Mexican immigrant you see working at Taco Bell after his job mowing lawns and before he cleans your office at night? If he would just buckle down, I'm quite sure that he would be able to move up in society.
All those white kids going to college, getting grants and scholarships and low-interest deferred loans from the federal government - that's the epitome of hard work. Look at George Bush! His family paid his way into Andover, Yale and Harvard, and made sure that when he was bankrupting his oil company that it was bought by a larger company. His family's friends have bankrolled every venture he's gone into, and when they have all failed, they've made sure there was another job waiting for him. Are you actually trying to say that this had more to do with his last name than the back-breaking hard work he has done all his life? HA!
Silly liberals. Hard work is when you have to go to 2 networking events on the same night during your vacation to Martha's Vineyard. Hard work is finding the right balance between the amount of partying vs. attending classes you do during your all-expenses-paid tenure at an elite school.
Oh, when will you liberals learn?
Posted by: Stephen | Apr 26, 2006 4:26:06 PM
ah, Fred, check this from Brad Plumer today: According to OECD data, French workers are, on average, 6 to 16 percent more productive than American workers. The rest of Brad's post on a new study by EPI on French/US comparisons shatters some other myths as well.
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Apr 26, 2006 4:27:06 PM
Stephen, we need to get you some
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Apr 26, 2006 4:32:11 PM
some (snark)... (/snark) tags. I thought you had been overtaken by the wicked witch of the right as I was reading along.
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Apr 26, 2006 4:34:33 PM
There's a lot of numbers in your post Ezra, and I think they're confusing. Nor do I sort of understand your jumping off point - Andrew Sullivan finds America better than Britain, and he's... wrong? Just asking.
I think there are two forces at work here - one is that there certainly is no deus ex machina magic mobility in America for a large numbers of folks. That after all is the fantasy that the media sells best. But most of us will not become models, actors, strippers or win the actual lottery. Many people have modest, achievable ambitions and are not necessaily uncomfortable with their financial status or social position. But it is clearly a part of the fiber of American thought that we believe people who apply themselves can succeed, that we are a place of opportunity for anyone who wants to try.
Are there structural barriers to this? Absolutely. Are they getting worse? Most definitely. That's why I'm a Democrat. But I do think what's wonderful and amazing about America (and why I think conservatives, ultimately, can never prevail with their downbeat worldview) is that we have a society where success is defined in many different ways, most of them perfectly valid, and we tolerate a wide array of ways to live. That is not what you see in many other cultures and societies. And it is the allure of American life.
So, yes I think there are inequities and divisions and some class rigidity that may be growing. I don't find the statistics at all convincing that Western Europe has greater mobility (or, perhaps it that I doubt that they have quite the breadth of strata to begin with). I would believe that it's possible, in England, say, that people can improve their income more than here. I'm not sure that will change the class perception for them in that culture. And that, I think, may be the difference, and it's hard to quantify.
Posted by: weboy | Apr 26, 2006 4:54:05 PM
Gotta tell you Weboy, i don't think these numbers are confusing at all. They may be jarring, but the picture they paint is perfectly clear. In America, your station in life is increasingly determined by the luck of your birth. Moving up is hard, and rare. Moving down is becoming ever more common. And working more has stopped paying the financial dividends it used to. You mention that in America, we definie success in many ways (do we though? More than other countries?). I hope so. Because for too many, the tradition definition -- income growth -- is becoming less and less achievable.
Posted by: Ezra | Apr 26, 2006 5:01:01 PM
ARGH - the untimate point is not the noodling in minutia, but the fact that a MAJORITY of Americans perceive something that is incorrect - that is if they work hard, save, buy their own business/stay loyal to a company that they have an large chance of fulfilling the 'American Dream'...which is usually somewhat modest - not being a famous movie star. This is becoming increasing fantasy here - especially between generations. Cubicle jobs are the new working class with many other skilled jobs either gone or now resembling basic service jobs due to mass corporate-ization.....To say this is just the fault of lazy Americans is about the stupidest excuse I've heard on this topic in a while.
Posted by: Zedd | Apr 26, 2006 5:10:28 PM
Two thoughts:
If you want things to improve, I'd focus on the positives, not the negatives. I think this is a question Democrats, especially rich Democrats, back into with all of the "there's no mobility" talk... okay, but do you want greater mobility? Because that has implications for a lot of folks in the Upper Middle and Highest brackets. There is a finite set of resources in this equation, ultimately. And if you want people to agree that increased mobility is better, I'd focus on the upside and the benefits, not the hectoring of people who are successful now.
Second, and this goes back to the numbers question, and the finite resources - a lot of people (admittedly nowhere near all) are doing quite well, many better than they have in the past. How much success is success, in this equation? You speak of 1% only being able to rise to the to... okay, but do they rise at all? where do they go? And if only 22% stay in the top, where are they going, and doesn't that show some siginificant mobility, or am I missing something? That's what I mean - I get what you're trying to show with your stats, but they seemm incomplete, and that there's more story here than just what you mention.
But as I say, generally, I agree with you - I think we're less mobile now than we were, and it's concerning.
Posted by: weboy | Apr 26, 2006 5:15:43 PM
See, I think that would detract from the point. I figure you're in a high bracket (based on this post and yesterday's on celebrity chefs, which you also took personally in a class warfare sense), which is fine. But yes, I do want greater mobility. I don't think your kids' incomes should have a near .5 correlation with your own, largely because I don't think poor kids should be locked in like that. As for where folks end up, nearly half who begin in the bottom quintile stay there. 65 percent remain in the bottom two. Only 6 percent make it to the top quintile.
Moreover, I think you're gliding over the most worrying stats, those of middle class income volatility and downward mobility. This stuff isn't sunny, and I don't think we should pretend otherwise. When the media household is facing more risk and less gain during a orbust expansion than a deep recession, something is seriously wrong.
Posted by: Ezra | Apr 26, 2006 5:23:26 PM
How can you have mobility without volatility? Since the number of people in the bottom quintile must stay the same ( by definition), for everyone who rises out someone else must drop down. I agree with Ezra's desire for more income mobility but volatility is the inescapable counterpart of that. Volatility would seem to be a good thing.
Posted by: quietstorm | Apr 26, 2006 5:43:57 PM
I've uploaded Figure 2 (International Estimates of the
Father-Son Earnings Elasticity) to ImageShack. It can be found at,
http://tinyurl.com/ezbgn
Posted by: KP | Apr 26, 2006 6:18:48 PM
I am deeply worried about downward mobility and the highly uncertain prospects for many people... but I think some of this is just so American - if you live beyond your means (i.e. high debt load, heavy credit cards, student loans, and your favorite... health care costs etc), then you can beliving on that knife edge even if you are, theoretically "well off". How do you factor that in? How do you account for people who earn a decent living wage, never puts them in the high brackets, but they're satisfied, comfortable and achieving happily modest ambitions (the usual marry the right person, have kids, etc)? Is the macro picture unsettling? Again, absolutely. But I hestitate to use that to overgeneralize what people want. Yes, Americans believe in an upwardly mobile society. How much do they want for themselves? I'm never really sure. Your numbers don't help me get there.
Finally, I take none of this personally. I make less than my Mother did before she retired, and I may never see her salary (which made me, really, blanche when I saw it about 7 years or so ago). I'm not rich, but by the same token, for a single person with few expenses, I do quite well. I'm not a fan of class warfare, and I'm not going to be a combatant - I want everyone to do well. I think the question is, what defines "well." My definition - as you point out, for fine things like high end restaurants and other accoutrements - is not yours, or others. But I think it's key to understanding whether things are demonstrably worse than they were in the past. If people manage to achieve many of their wants, are they not doing well? If they don't, is the problem the system, man, or something more nuanced?
As quietstorm notes, and liberals tend to gloss over, someone has to be at the bottom of this discussion of mobility - some who start there and never move, and some who arrive there out of "volatility". You can fix some of this, but not all of it. That's the reality. You can make it somewhat better, but some people will still not be able to realize their (uniquely American) dreams. And, ultimately, you will have to live with that. Making people who are better off than you (or worse off, as well) the enemy in this won't get you very far. That, to me, is what class warfare is about. But I think we need to redefine what we're going to call success to help defuse that.
Posted by: weboy | Apr 26, 2006 7:04:01 PM
weboy's last comment made me think about what a really class-rigid society is about. In that vein, we had the pre-industrial age - take England, for example - where your class nearly completely defined your prospects for the future and for your children. The Lords, the land owners, and then 'the rest'.
The great upheavals brought about in the industrial age, and now the information age, ended up distributing wealth, knowledge and power such that rigid lines didn't prevent moving across class lines, not for all, but for many or most those who wanted it and worked for it. And the growth of a prosperus middle class was the hallmark of that change.
Many say that democracy depends upon that middle class. In all of this change, the important facts were individual ambitions and effort made possible by removal of societal, cultural and economic barriers. Many people were and are satisfied in some sense with their lives, but they are not limited if they want more.
The one thing most people don't want is a structure that prevents them and their offspring from being able to have a different and better life, however they define it.
When we study the sort of statistics Ezra offers, we are really doing a diagnostic checkup to see how healthy the society overall is, as measured variously. When wealth is highly concentrated (and the power that often accompanies wealth), and mobility is reduced, then overall we are looking at an unhealthy society that dims individual choice and threatens a democratic society.
Trying to preserve and extend the possibilities of individual mobility and check the excesses that power gives to wealth and wealth gives to power is not class warfare.
We really are experiencing a situation, as measured by social statistics, that is somewhat foreign to us (especially since WWII): extreme wealth in the hands of a few percentage points of the population, and the use of that power to shut down the mobility of those below them by control over the tools of government. This is the actual class warfare being waged - the wealthy and powerful against those below them. That is the danger, to both our society and to our democracy. It is happening. We will regret it if we don't recognize it and take action. That is the importance of the data we are discussing.
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Apr 26, 2006 9:08:25 PM
Absolutely what Jim says.
The question of volatility is not nearly as critical as weboy and quietstorm think. Yes, there must always be a bottom quintile, just as there must always be a top. But that does not mean that the bottom quintile is necessarily below the federal poverty line, or that it is necessarily 116% of the federal poverty line. The problem that Ezra points out is that not the stability of the number of people in each quintile, but the likelihood of the people themselves to move out of whatever quintile they may occupy. The fact that most of the movement is downward is cause for serious concern.
Also, this isn't about definitions of the "American Dream." It's not about assuming that all people want to be fabulously wealthy, or famous, or powerful. Whether those who make up America's middle class have an overpowering urge to enter the upper classes doesn't matter. It is safer to assume, however, that those who make up the bottom quintile would like to move upward instead of stay where they are at; it is much easier to be content with what one has when one has enough.
I suggest that everyone can agree on the beauty of the American Dream: that anyone, regardless of start or station, can accomplish great things with nothing other than drive and determination. If there is anything that shows this nation as something quite special - and I believe that it is - it is this belief. The numbers that we are discussing show nothing less than evidence of war waged against the American Dream itself.
Posted by: Stephen | Apr 26, 2006 9:54:38 PM
So if Dems are comitted to policies where the American Dream becomes more viable, where's the problem with understanding who you are and what you stand for : and saying so ? It isn't as if you can't point to proof.
Posted by: opit | Apr 26, 2006 11:54:51 PM
So if Dems are comitted to policies where the American Dream becomes more viable, where's the problem with understanding who you are and what you stand for : and saying so ? It isn't as if you can't point to proof.
Conservatives tend to organize their world according to clear categories, strict rules and strong beliefs. Anything that a conservative comes across can only have meaning once it is put into the proper category, checked against the rules and measured up to the beliefs. All of life is interpreted according to those things. This type of mindset lends itself to easily stated beliefs, stuff that works in a commercial or on a bumper sticker.
Liberals approach life in a different way. They have strong beliefs - comment threads on liberal blogs are a good example of this - but are open to other interpretations, other ways of seeing or doing things. Their categories a more flexible, their rules possible to change, and their beliefs open to development. Conservatives would have us believe that this makes liberals wishy-washy or without conviction. Nothing, of course, could be farther from the truth.
The last several decades have seen the Right coalesce and the Left - splinter is a bad word, how about "un-coalesce" - and the Right has started to win more elections.
Then comes Clinton. Biggest success we've had in a long while. But he's a "new type of liberal," someone who won because of his ability to "triangulate." In the face of this success, we've got groups like the DLC who now think that the "old" way of being a liberal just wont work anymore. We've all got to be - not like Clinton, rather like their interpretation of who Clinton was.
While all of this is happening, the Right is growing more sure of itself, louder, more obnoxious, more willing to claim prerogatives for itself at the expense of others. While it is not true that liberals are "weak" when it comes to argument and dispute, it is true that we will not jump to violence, whether physical or rhetorical, to settle disputes. And we will give our opponents a fair hearing and thoughtful discourse, something the Right simply feels no need to offer.
I think that many of our politicians have strong beliefs and would like to enact progressive policies. But they have the full-scale assault from the Right telling them how "out of touch" they are, and then the softer, more insidious whispers of the DLC and their ilk who are basically saying that the GOP is right, America doesn't agree with us, and the only thing left to do is win elections. And the way we do that is by fooling Americans into thinking that we are basically the GOP without all the evil.
The Democratic party and its leaders need to be reminded that this is not about winning elections, not about passing legislation or confirming judges. There is a liberal vision for this country, one that includes equality for all, help for those that need it and reward for those that work hard. One where America is a powerful, peaceful leader among the nations of the world.
This is why this blog is important. This is why all the liberal blogosphere is important, because it is full of informed, impassioned, strong liberals who don't back away from their convictions, who refuse to cede ground to the Right and who are not afraid to engage the consultants, lobbyists and party leadership on a regular basis. I never wrote a letter to my Representative before last year. I never sent emails to my Senators before. I never volunteered for a campaign until 2004. All of this is due to the influence of the liberal blogosphere.
This may be a bit pie-in-the-sky, but I believe there will come a time when the Liebermans, Millers, Cuellars, Towns, Bidens and others will either be gone from Democratic politics or will learn to stop betraying the core principles of the party for their own gain. And this will come about because of the organization and inspiration that is coming from what we are doing right here.
A bit long, a bit off-topic. Sorry. But I really wanted to get this off my chest, and this is my forum. I'm sure someone could make a comment about my lack of a blog to call my own.
Posted by: Stephen | Apr 27, 2006 12:38:32 AM
I'm frankly a little appalled by some of the comments. I think Ezra's point here is perfectly clear, and has been made many times before, perhaps most notably by Paul Krugman. People want to believe that America is a socially mobile society, and at one time it was, in particular in comparison to then-stratified Europe. Unfortunately, what the numbers say is that is no longer the case; in fact, most of Europe is now more mobile than us. Europeans believe themselves to be less mobile, based on their past history, just as we overestimate our mobility based on our history. We need to confront this new reality, instead of running away from it, blaming workers, or insulting liberals.
Posted by: Rebecca Allen, PhD, ARNP | Apr 27, 2006 1:51:09 AM
All this talk about mobility is useful ONLY if the average american now is worse off than americans previously, or if we are worse off compared to our colleagues in Europe, Canada, etc.
The report directly answers this question:
Family income per person in 1968: approx $10k (2004 dollars)
Family income per person in 2004: approx $27k (2004 dollars)
So in other words, americans are SUBSTANTIALLY better off now in terms of income than we were in 1968. So who gives a damn about mobility
My theory is that "poor" people in America in 2004 are MUCH BETTER OFF than "poor" people in America in 1968. Therefore, the impetus for upwards class mobility is reduced.
Posted by: joe blow | Apr 27, 2006 2:39:52 AM
Sorry Joe, you can't just look at income. You also have to consider what things cost to live a decent life.
I don't have comparable figures on 1968-2004 cost comparisons, but I'm confident that the portion of income left over after essentials are paid may have grown in that 35 year period, but in the last 5 or 10 years it has decreased. Take one item: is there doubt that sending your children through college costs dramatically more today than 35 years ago, in constant dollars? And health care?
Posted by: JimPortlandOR | Apr 27, 2006 3:08:40 AM
The cost of living is included in the CPI, which was used to adjust those figures to 2004 dollars.
So all that stuff you talked about is ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR in the income numbers
I have other data showing that "poor" people in the United States are actually middle class according to European standards
Posted by: joe blow | Apr 27, 2006 3:55:41 AM
I have other data showing that "poor" people in the United States are actually middle class according to European standards
This is an excellent point. Why, just the other day, I noted that people who claimed to be "rich" in New York city lived in small apartments while people who were supposedly "poor" and "middle class" in Ohio had much larger living spaces, thus showing that the "rich" in New York City are actually poor according to heartland America standards.
Posted by: Constantine | Apr 27, 2006 7:22:38 AM
Ezra Klein quotes the following from the report:
"Households where the adults worked more than 40 hours a week were able, during 1990-91 and 1997-98 able to translate their labor into upward mobility. Now, the correlation has disappeared."
This is totally meaningless, and cannot be used to draw any conclusions whatsoever. The "now" referred to in the last sentence is exactly one data point: the 2003-2004 year. If you want to make a case that hard work does not translate into mobility in the United States - relative to Europe - you have to compute some long term averages.
Posted by: alex | Apr 27, 2006 9:09:40 AM
We ought to be (and some of us are) quite concerned about what it means, precisely, to be in the bottom quintile. I wonder, though, if things were a bit more 'volatile'--that is, if the sons and daughters of the middle and upper classes were more likely to end up there--if we might not get a bit more serious concern from more of our fellow citizend regarding the fate of the poor. As it stands now, it's not a particularly popular political cause, which makes it difficult to do anything about the problem.
Posted by: djw | Apr 27, 2006 9:27:25 AM
"I suggest that everyone can agree on the beauty of the American Dream: that anyone, regardless of start or station, can accomplish great things with nothing other than drive and determination."
The repub elites are doing everything in their power to prevent anyone else from attaining the American Dream - bankruptcy "reform", dropping student grants in favor of loans, defunding public schools, elimination of estate tax while shifting tax burden onto the middle class. The mechanisms that people were able to use in the past to progress upward are being restricted while the benefits for those who are currently at the top are being solidified. Whatever happened to noblesse oblige?
Posted by: CParis | Apr 27, 2006 10:44:12 AM
This is totally meaningless, and cannot be used to draw any conclusions whatsoever. The "now" referred to in the last sentence is exactly one data point: the 2003-2004 year.
That is a good point. Another point that no one has touched upon is education which is widely available at affordable prices, even government financial help. Working hard doesn't mean just doing more of the same ol' thing like overtime. Working hard also means doing what it takes to achieve one's goals, and that includes going to schools.
Education is the most direct and sure way to move up. Kid from the 'hood' gets a 4 year business degree and I *guarantee* you if he still lives in the hood, it's out of choice.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 27, 2006 10:57:00 AM
"Education is the most direct and sure way to move up. Kid from the 'hood' gets a 4 year business degree and I *guarantee* you if he still lives in the hood, it's out of choice."
So income and affluence of the community have no bearing on the quality of education one receives? I can't imagine trying to discuss this with you. "Don't worry if you can't go private prep schools or live in affluent school districts, just try harder."
Posted by: JMack | Apr 27, 2006 5:40:56 PM
THe data shows nothing of the sort. The majority of poor are no longer poor by the time they reach their 30s or 40s. A small but not insignificant percentage(14% of whites and 3% of blacks) make it to the top quartile from the bottom.
While income mobility has decreased in recent years, and that's a cause for concern, to say that the American belief in social mobility is not true is well, a lie.
Posted by: Adam Herman | Apr 28, 2006 3:52:31 AM
A few points:
1. By itself, "social mobility" is a meaningless measure. If all people gained an equal amount of wealth over a given time period, there would be zero social mobility.
2. What social mobility is good for is to indicate disproportionate changes in wealth: either entrepreneurialism or else catastrophic disaster.
3. You mention that the bottom quintile does not often reach the top 5%. But how often does it reach the top quintile? Is it a shock that of the 5% wealthiest people, only 1/25 of them began their lives in abject poverty? Remember, most rich people do not suddenly become poor; on the other hand, it takes an awful lot of work to go from nothing to riches.
Broader groups, on the other hand, show much more change. On page 4 of the report you linked to from Dr. Hertz, it shows that less than half of the bottom quartile stay there throughout their lives, and that nearly 10% make it into the top quartile.
Wealth is in large part a product of the attitude you have towards money: your spending habits, your financial knowledge, your tolerance for risk. It should not be surprising that such things are taught by parents to their children. Read any book by Robert Kiyosaki on the subject, or The Millionaire Next Door.
Posted by: Mastiff | Apr 28, 2006 4:18:34 AM
"Don't worry if you can't go private prep schools or live in affluent school districts, just try harder."
Yes. You didn't get the lucky straw. So what? Does that mean that it's impossible to get a good education? Just give up because your daddy's not rich and it's not handed to you on a plate? You might actually have to work harder?
Waaaaaaaaaaa.....waaaaaaaa.....waaaaaaaaaaa...
What we are discussing is the possibility of mobility in this country and it certainly is possible and even probable if you go to school......yes even a a state school!. What you seem to be discussing is egalitarianism or the lack thereof.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 28, 2006 10:53:48 AM
Number one predictor of income is still age, is it not? The "study" from the Center for American Progress seems to cut this off pretty early. Also, if mobility consists of moving from the bottom percent to the top 5%, I think that is not a real good measure of mobility as the rich in the US are very, very rich. The top 1% of earners in the US skews things as does the correlation between income and landed wealth in that category.
Posted by: Alex | Apr 28, 2006 11:12:06 AM
Wealth is in large part a product of the attitude you have towards money: your spending habits, your financial knowledge, your tolerance for risk. It should not be surprising that such things are taught by parents to their children. Read any book by Robert Kiyosaki on the subject, or The Millionaire Next Door.
Oh, Fuck, Mastiff. That's the cultural and educational aspect argument that I made. However, I've been set straight. IT'S ALL LUCK!! Just ask any liberal.
Posted by: Fred Jones | Apr 28, 2006 4:45:24 PM
The cost of living is included in the CPI
Well, no, it isn't, not exactly. The CPI specifically excludes from consideration those things that undergo high price volatility, like food, energy costs (including home heating oil/gas and gasoline). Things like income taxes, property (including homes), and other investment items are excluded as well.
So, really, the CPI doesn't include the major rising costs of modern living - the increasing prices of homes, food, and energy - and so can't be taken as an authoratative source in regards to the relationship of income to costs.
Posted by: Chet | Apr 28, 2006 10:28:59 PM
I am a white 35-year-old woman, and I have been working my butt off since I was 16 years old. Unfortunately, I funded my quest for success with credit cards (and a bid 'ol student loan) and now I expect to be buried until about age 40. My social class has fallen below that of my parents.
I realize that you don't know my whole situation, so you can't really judge, but my years and years and years of hard work have paid off with my life stagnant in the suck right. Further, my company has a "freeze on raises" while my cost of living goes up, up, up. If this continues for much longer... well, I'm not sure if I'm ever going to get out of debt, much less ever find success in my chosen career. Luckily my '94 Corolla is still going and since I live in L.A., I pretty much just figure home ownership is for the rich, and I've given up on it completely.
I keep working at breaking through though...
Posted by: lizriz | Sep 5, 2006 8:52:21 PM
Kid from the 'hood' gets a 4 year business degree and I *guarantee* you if he still lives in the hood, it's out of choice.
This from a man who thinks the 'hood is worn by a young woman in the forest.
Anyway, one factor here? The path to upward mobility. If you come from a blue-collar family and want to get ahead, you'll get your degree, get your job... start paying off your loans. Want to get further ahead by going to grad school? Loantastic. Having the equivalent of a mortgage's worth of debt is a great way to ensure that you're fucked before you even start, especially if that advanced degree isn't from law/med/biz school.
Posted by: ahem | Sep 6, 2006 1:44:21 AM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Lucas Fawcett | Jun 22, 2007 3:02:57 PM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: Efrain Jasso | Jun 22, 2007 3:30:34 PM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Cristopher Herzog | Jun 22, 2007 3:56:50 PM
Madonna says she may adopt another child from abroad following her proposed adoption of a Malawian boy.
Posted by: Keshawn Black | Jun 22, 2007 11:59:07 PM
The judge who put coded messages in his Da Vinci Code plagiarism trial ruling has written another.
Posted by: Jaylan Marion | Jun 23, 2007 4:17:25 PM
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Posted by: Papayiy | Jun 27, 2007 10:15:00 PM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Jaylon Lowry | Jul 5, 2007 3:30:03 AM
Veteran actor William Franklyn, known for voicing the 1960s Schweppes TV adverts, dies aged 81.
Posted by: Luca Dejesus | Jul 5, 2007 3:58:43 AM
Veteran actor William Franklyn, known for voicing the 1960s Schweppes TV adverts, dies aged 81.
Posted by: Garrett Mcvay | Jul 5, 2007 4:23:57 AM
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say.
Posted by: Ahmad Quintanilla | Jul 5, 2007 2:05:28 PM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Pablo Still | Jul 5, 2007 2:31:08 PM
Alec Baldwin asks for his voice to be removed from an "unfair" documentary about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Posted by: Joaquin Plunkett | Jul 5, 2007 3:14:45 PM
Microsoft and Peter Jackson postpone the making of a film based on the Halo video game after backers pull out.
Posted by: Jamar Shelby | Jul 5, 2007 4:47:49 PM
Microsoft and Peter Jackson postpone the making of a film based on the Halo video game after backers pull out.
Posted by: Jamar Shelby | Jul 5, 2007 4:48:37 PM
The Rolling Stones cancel a gig in Hawaii and postpone other tour dates as Mick Jagger suffers throat troubles.
Posted by: Gustavo Buffington | Jul 5, 2007 4:57:44 PM
Pioneering screenwriter Nigel Kneale, best known for the Quatermass TV serials and films, dies aged 84.
Posted by: Enrique Siegel | Jul 5, 2007 5:14:24 PM
The judge who put coded messages in his Da Vinci Code plagiarism trial ruling has written another.
Posted by: Zane Spearman | Jul 5, 2007 5:21:59 PM
Veteran actor William Franklyn, known for voicing the 1960s Schweppes TV adverts, dies aged 81.
Posted by: Braiden Roney | Jul 5, 2007 5:41:13 PM
Doctor Who takes three prizes at the National Television Awards in a repeat of its success last year.
Posted by: Ethan Kelley | Jul 5, 2007 6:21:06 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Stephan Rash | Jul 5, 2007 6:36:11 PM
Social networking site MySpace is to block users from uploading copyrighted music to its pages.
Posted by: Edward Pettigrew | Jul 5, 2007 6:55:34 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Dayton Newberry | Jul 5, 2007 7:03:22 PM
William Styron, whose Holocaust novel Sophie's Choice became a film and an opera, has died, aged 81.
Posted by: Reid Whitcomb | Jul 5, 2007 7:12:35 PM
The Rolling Stones postpone a show in the US to allow singer Sir Mick Jagger time to rest his voice.
Posted by: Dawson Hale | Jul 5, 2007 7:20:30 PM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Cason Sewell | Jul 5, 2007 7:25:51 PM
Classical singer Russell Watson postpones his forthcoming UK tour after undergoing brain surgery.
Posted by: Aldo Joiner | Jul 5, 2007 7:40:52 PM
Pop trio Atomic Kitten will reform to play a concert in support of jailed Liverpool football fan Michael Shields.
Posted by: Kadin House | Jul 5, 2007 7:46:39 PM
Colombia's vice president is "baffled" by Kate Moss's success following cocaine allegations.
Posted by: Jack Swift | Jul 5, 2007 7:54:21 PM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: Alfredo Rucker | Jul 5, 2007 8:21:31 PM
Doctor Who takes three prizes at the National Television Awards in a repeat of its success last year.
Posted by: Tre Newton | Jul 5, 2007 8:41:59 PM
William Styron, whose Holocaust novel Sophie's Choice became a film and an opera, has died, aged 81.
Posted by: Johnathon Gill | Jul 13, 2007 2:17:30 AM
Classical singer Russell Watson postpones his forthcoming UK tour after undergoing brain surgery.
Posted by: Roland Merrell | Jul 13, 2007 2:56:39 AM
Alec Baldwin asks for his voice to be removed from an "unfair" documentary about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Posted by: Donavan Reuter | Jul 13, 2007 3:00:23 AM
Borat creator Sacha Baron Cohen reportedly signs a $42.5m (£22m) film deal starring his character Bruno.
Posted by: Jadyn Kilpatrick | Jul 13, 2007 3:36:14 AM
Borat creator Sacha Baron Cohen reportedly signs a $42.5m (£22m) film deal starring his character Bruno.
Posted by: Jadyn Kilpatrick | Jul 13, 2007 3:36:18 AM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Larry Weathers | Jul 13, 2007 4:13:31 AM
Record company EMI sign a deal with the estate of crooner Dean Martin to use the singer's likeness.
Posted by: Morgan Erdmann | Jul 13, 2007 4:48:18 AM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Bruno Lynn | Jul 13, 2007 4:54:36 AM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Hector Mears | Jul 13, 2007 5:17:53 AM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Hector Mears | Jul 13, 2007 5:17:57 AM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Salvador Harman | Jul 13, 2007 5:25:55 AM
Pioneering screenwriter Nigel Kneale, best known for the Quatermass TV serials and films, dies aged 84.
Posted by: Remington Gaston | Jul 13, 2007 5:33:04 AM
Pop trio Atomic Kitten will reform to play a concert in support of jailed Liverpool football fan Michael Shields.
Posted by: Antoine Helton | Jul 13, 2007 6:15:38 AM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Dawson Criswell | Jul 13, 2007 6:38:57 AM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Dawson Criswell | Jul 13, 2007 6:39:05 AM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Maximillian Lamm | Jul 13, 2007 6:44:01 AM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: Holden Crum | Jul 13, 2007 6:54:08 AM
Alec Baldwin asks for his voice to be removed from an "unfair" documentary about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Posted by: Darien Nicholas | Jul 13, 2007 6:58:39 AM
The Rolling Stones cancel a gig in Hawaii and postpone other tour dates as Mick Jagger suffers throat troubles.
Posted by: Demarcus Cordell | Jul 13, 2007 7:02:20 AM
Jonathan Ross is dubbed "risque" by Ofcom but not in breach of rules over an interview with David Cameron.
Posted by: Cayden Bromley | Jul 13, 2007 7:18:41 AM
William Styron, whose Holocaust novel Sophie's Choice became a film and an opera, has died, aged 81.
Posted by: Jase Phifer | Jul 13, 2007 7:21:07 AM
William Styron, whose Holocaust novel Sophie's Choice became a film and an opera, has died, aged 81.
Posted by: Jase Phifer | Jul 13, 2007 7:22:12 AM
Madonna says she may adopt another child from abroad following her proposed adoption of a Malawian boy.
Posted by: Erick Contreras | Jul 13, 2007 7:22:45 AM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: William Santana | Jul 13, 2007 8:07:10 AM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: William Santana | Jul 13, 2007 8:08:19 AM
Borat creator Sacha Baron Cohen reportedly signs a $42.5m (£22m) film deal starring his character Bruno.
Posted by: Zakary Schreiner | Jul 13, 2007 8:41:32 AM
Colombia's vice president is "baffled" by Kate Moss's success following cocaine allegations.
Posted by: Quinn Lundberg | Jul 13, 2007 8:54:22 AM
Madonna says she may adopt another child from abroad following her proposed adoption of a Malawian boy.
Posted by: Cyrus Collett | Jul 13, 2007 9:12:46 AM
Madonna says she may adopt another child from abroad following her proposed adoption of a Malawian boy.
Posted by: Cyrus Collett | Jul 13, 2007 9:13:49 AM
Borat creator Sacha Baron Cohen reportedly signs a $42.5m (£22m) film deal starring his character Bruno.
Posted by: Scott Broussard | Jul 13, 2007 9:25:11 AM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Trenton Becker | Jul 13, 2007 9:31:44 AM
Borat creator Sacha Baron Cohen reportedly signs a $42.5m (£22m) film deal starring his character Bruno.
Posted by: Jaeden Pack | Jul 13, 2007 9:38:31 AM
The first stage of a £150m investment in regional museums is praised for boosting visitor numbers.
Posted by: Camren Hoppe | Jul 13, 2007 9:51:00 AM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Jagger Block | Jul 13, 2007 10:01:48 AM
Microsoft and Peter Jackson postpone the making of a film based on the Halo video game after backers pull out.
Posted by: Jamel Villareal | Jul 13, 2007 10:03:22 AM
Veteran actor William Franklyn, known for voicing the 1960s Schweppes TV adverts, dies aged 81.
Posted by: Gerald Lofton | Jul 13, 2007 10:13:38 AM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Bobby Cochran | Jul 13, 2007 10:25:47 AM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Bobby Cochran | Jul 13, 2007 10:25:53 AM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Kendall Burnette | Jul 13, 2007 10:35:14 AM
TV host Oprah Winfrey gives audience members $1,000 (£526) each to donate to a charitable cause.
Posted by: Kendall Burnette | Jul 13, 2007 10:35:37 AM
Pop trio Atomic Kitten will reform to play a concert in support of jailed Liverpool football fan Michael Shields.
Posted by: Rey Conger | Jul 13, 2007 10:47:39 AM
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say.
Posted by: Gavin Wyant | Jul 13, 2007 11:10:25 AM
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say.
Posted by: Gavin Wyant | Jul 13, 2007 11:10:28 AM
The Red Hot Chili Peppers are leading the way at this years MTV Europe music awards with four nominations.
Posted by: Jalen Forest | Jul 13, 2007 11:23:26 AM
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say.
Posted by: Micah Weiss | Jul 13, 2007 11:42:07 AM
A musical about the witches from The Wizard of Oz breaks West End box office records, its producers say.
Posted by: Micah Weiss | Jul 13, 2007 11:42:12 AM
Social networking site MySpace is to block users from uploading copyrighted music to its pages.
Posted by: Alfredo Sowell | Jul 13, 2007 12:53:07 PM
Social networking site MySpace is to block users from uploading copyrighted music to its pages.
Posted by: Alfredo Sowell | Jul 13, 2007 12:53:39 PM
Social networking site MySpace is to block users from uploading copyrighted music to its pages.
Posted by: Mohamed Bolden | Jul 13, 2007 1:28:19 PM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Miguel Bolduc | Jul 13, 2007 1:54:37 PM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Miguel Bolduc | Jul 13, 2007 1:54:44 PM
Colombia's vice president is "baffled" by Kate Moss's success following cocaine allegations.
Posted by: Jonas Crabtree | Jul 13, 2007 2:02:31 PM
Pop trio Atomic Kitten will reform to play a concert in support of jailed Liverpool football fan Michael Shields.
Posted by: Marquis Hopkins | Jul 13, 2007 2:20:34 PM
Pop trio Atomic Kitten will reform to play a concert in support of jailed Liverpool football fan Michael Shields.
Posted by: Marquis Hopkins | Jul 13, 2007 2:21:45 PM
Microsoft and Peter Jackson postpone the making of a film based on the Halo video game after backers pull out.
Posted by: Austin Armijo | Jul 13, 2007 2:23:26 PM
Microsoft and Peter Jackson postpone the making of a film based on the Halo video game after backers pull out.
Posted by: Austin Armijo | Jul 13, 2007 2:23:59 PM
William Styron, whose Holocaust novel Sophie's Choice became a film and an opera, has died, aged 81.
Posted by: Ismael Darnell | Jul 13, 2007 2:43:39 PM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Jovanni Tyree | Jul 13, 2007 2:59:52 PM
Singer George Michael lends the piano on which John Lennon wrote Imagine to an anti-war exhibition.
Posted by: Jovanni Tyree | Jul 13, 2007 3:00:04 PM
Colombia's vice president is "baffled" by Kate Moss's success following cocaine allegations.
Posted by: Daniel Simpkins | Jul 13, 2007 3:15:46 PM
Colombia's vice president is "baffled" by Kate Moss's success following cocaine allegations.
Posted by: Dylon Tindall | Jul 13, 2007 3:29:24 PM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Finn Downey | Jul 13, 2007 4:00:10 PM
Veteran game show host Bob Barker is stepping down from hosting The Price is Right after 35 years.
Posted by: Finn Downey | Jul 13, 2007 4:00:46 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Kevin Farrow | Jul 17, 2007 10:35:30 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Bernardo Fredericks | Jul 20, 2007 4:25:06 PM
Alec Baldwin asks for his voice to be removed from an "unfair" documentary about Arnold Schwarzenegger.
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Posted by: ramper | Aug 14, 2007 8:09:40 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Johnathon Marino | Aug 15, 2007 12:01:54 PM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Julian Shultz | Aug 16, 2007 3:13:41 AM
London-born rapper Sway is to be honoured at the BET Hip-Hop awards in the US.
Posted by: Bryce Barclay | Aug 28, 2007 2:32:22 PM
Genetic testing on unborn children is, is not ethical
Posted by: atlanta home and garden show | Aug 29, 2007 2:38:47 PM
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Posted by: wslmwps | Aug 30, 2007 1:35:04 AM
Poor Air Quality Threatens Our Health
Posted by: sea1 | Sep 1, 2007 8:18:53 PM
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Posted by: dota | Sep 28, 2007 7:32:19 PM
I just don't have much to say right now, but I guess it doesn't bother me. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. Nothing notable happening these days. Shrug. Not that it matters. My mind is like a void. I've basically been doing nothing , not that it matters. More or less nothing going on. I guess it doesn't bother me. Not much on my mind.
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