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October 30, 2005

What the Ohio Senate Discussion Should Be About

By Neil the Ethical Werewolf

After reading the Majikthise-Dadahead exchange on Paul Hackett, I'm not especially happy with the arguments of either side.  I haven't yet decided who I want to win the Ohio Senate primary, though I'm leaning towards Brown.  (Like everybody else, I donated to Hackett's House race this year.)  Below, I'm going to criticize both of their arguments, and present the state of the debate as I see it.  I'm open to being convinced, but I don't think the arguments given so far are convincing. 

Lindsay says that "The reason to support Hackett over Brown is simple -- if Hackett wins (and he can win), the progressive blogosphere makes history."  She discusses Hackett's "ability to harness the power of the blogosphere" and says that he "owes the blogosphere."  These arguments really don't move me.  I care about helping poor people, preserving individual liberties from persecution, and having an intelligent and humane foreign policy.  The progressive blogosphere making history is not very high on my list of interests.  Even if it was, Hackett's Senate campaign is unlikely to be as closely tied to progressive blogs as his House campaign. 

Hackett was able to harness progressive blogs because he was an aggressive opponent of the Iraq War whose military record made him surprisingly electable in a very red district.  It's also because of the structure of a special election -- there were no other candidates that month to compete for bloggers' money, the relative news vacuum got Hackett national media attention, and some bloggers (like myself) saw fit to exploit the news vacuum by filling it with an attractive candidate's message, which would reflect well on Democrats.  Many of these factors don't apply to the 2006 Senate race.  Maybe a Hackett Senate campaign will get more money than his House campaign got, but he won't get enough to power a hard-fought Senate race in a big state while bloggers are also donating to defeat Katherine Harris and Rick Santorum, win open Senate seats in several states, and take back the House.  It's also possible that a Hackett campaign might draw funds away from other important races. 

Dadahead has criticized Hackett for claiming that Brown is "too liberal."  If Hackett had actually said anything like this, it would be a problem -- I like liberal Democrats, and I dislike any Democrat who tries to damage another Democrat's electability by making them seem extreme. But it's not clear that Hackett actually said this.  Dadahead gets his quote from David Sirota, who cites a sloppy Toledo Blade article in which Hackett is never quoted as saying any such thing.  The reporter puts the "too liberal" charge in Hackett's mouth, but doesn't present any quotes to substantiate it.  What Hackett actually seems to be saying is just that he'll have a wider appeal: 

"I believe in the core values of the Democratic Party," Mr. Hackett said. "I'm not afraid to fight for them and my values. Some of them are conservative, including on Second Amendment rights.

"A Democrat in Ohio can get all of the Democratic votes in the northeastern and central parts of the state and still not get elected," he said. "It's got to be somebody who believes in the values of all Ohioans, and that takes winning over independents and conservatives."

So he's conservative on the gun issue.  If you're big on gun control, vote for Brown.  But I don't see the "too liberal" charge anywhere, except in the vague "values of all Ohioans" way that only touches Brown by a faint implicature.  Maybe Sirota knows more than we do about this.  But given his egregious history of misrepresenting the positions of Democrats he disagrees with, I'm not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Hackett's military background will be resistant to the kinds of attacks that Republicans wheeled in against Kerry.  Hackett's cocky, aggressive attitude meshes much better with his military background than Kerry's stiff, senatorial persona did with his, and it'll earn Hackett a powerful media image.  While Americans didn't see the relevance of Kerry's Vietnam service 30+ years ago to his attitude to Iraq today, Hackett's more recent service in Iraq gives him instant credibility on that issue.   

To make my decision about whom to support, I'll need to know more about the candidates.  I like Hackett's public persona, which will help him unseat DeWine.  I also like the idea of having a somewhat stereotypical military man aggressively defending Democratic foreign policy views and strengthening our party's image on national defense.  But he has to show me that he will actually be a strong force for liberal positions.  (Somebody ask him about health care, please?)  As for Brown, I'm in near-total agreement with his voting record -- I'm probably more of a free-trader than he is, but everything else, including his vote against the war and his support for foreign aid, looks pretty much right.  I've heard great things about the organization he's set up in Ohio, which will help him beat DeWine.  Brown still has to show me that he has an appealing enough public persona to win the election and help Democrats win media battles as a Senator. 

So try to convince me.  Tell me what Hackett's policy positions are, and tell me what kind of persona Brown has.  Those are the areas that I and other  undecided folk are in the dark about, and it's  up to these candidates and their  supporters to enlighten us.   

October 30, 2005 in Democrats | Permalink

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Comments

I think this primary is less about the candidates issue positions as it is about being able to beat DeWine. The differences between the 2 candidates on the issues is marginal at best, if you take Hacketts OH-2 and recent statements at face value.
http://www.removerepublicans.com/paulhackettissues.html
has a run down on core principles.

Healthcare ? No rookie Senator is going to be trailblazing the healthcare solution - it's how they would vote on someone elses that matters, and i think both Brown and Hackett would vote the right way.

the troubling thing I see right now is how Brown isnt handling the pressure too well.
Put asides his ham fisted entry into the race, and look at his recent oops
http://www.buckeyesenateblog.com/2005/10/oops_.html
As an example.

If you have spent any time following Ohio politics you would know the game plan that someone like Brown is going to face next year. It's the same game plan the GOP have deployed to great effect for the last decade, and the same one they are currently running against Reform Ohio Now. Brown makes a perfect target for this Weak, indecision, liberal, gays, guns, god.
http://www.buckeyesenateblog.com/2005/10/stop_it_youre_g.html

One only needs to read the Ohio papers to see he isnt going to get a clean run. The Sirota made up planted quote is an example of what Brown faces - Hackett doesnt have to charge "liberal" because the Ohio red press will do it for him, as they did.

Hackett is already getting incredible amounts of free earned media because of his persona and biography - he is clearly a candidate that the press likes to cover - he has that X factor that Brown simply doesn't.

Brown clearly has the edge in a primary right now, because of the money and his NE roots where the bulk of the Dem votes come from - the problem is neither of those qualities is enough for him to beat DeWine without further Ohio GOP meltdown - something which DeWine is somewhat removed from.

Finally the other thing Hackett brings beyond the fresh air is credibility on Iraq - and his strong stance on this issue is going to give further backbone to other democrats who are struggling to find a backbone and a voice on this issue.

It seems to me that if you are going to run a 2006 election on the basis of being a change agent then actually running a fresh strong candidate and not an established long time congressman gives that idea and theme more credibility.

If you want a hint at who the Ohio GOP want to face, consider what they are saying
http://www.buckeyesenateblog.com/2005/10/legitimate_thre.html

Posted by: Pounder | Oct 30, 2005 5:00:27 PM

I will ignore the cheap shot at me which was totally unjustified, and simply point you to this Mother Jones article in which Hackett yet again criticizes Brown for being a "very liberal Democrat." The guy is running as a conservative, claiming he can win votes because of it. He's made no bones about that. What's strange is that his backers on the blogs are trying to make people forget that.

Why? Because they know that if progressives in the blogosphere catch onto this, they might not be so happy. It's the same way Hackett has changed his position on the Iraq War, but his backers on the blogs don't want anyone to know. It's very sad, especially for a campaign that claims it is all about being a "straight-shooter."

The straight-shooter is Brown - all you have to do is look at his voting record. The people who are going out of their way to obscure the actual issues are Hackett's supporters. And that's really sad.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 30, 2005 6:40:03 PM

I will ignore the cheap shot at me

I believe it is logically impossible to make this statement.

That being said, I agree with you.

Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Oct 30, 2005 6:43:25 PM

Can someone ask Brown why he voted for a bill that will stop non-profit housing groups working with the poor from registering voters if they want federal money? If they continue to register voters, all the money will end up going to private developers.

Pelosi, Conyers, Kucinich and Sanders - all of whom have great records defending the poor - voted against the bill. Brown voted for it - as did DeLay, Pombo, Sensenbrenner, Dreier.

I would love to know, is all. I'm not saying Hackett would have voted differently. I just want to know why Brown doesn't want the poor to vote.

Posted by: Cernig | Oct 30, 2005 7:10:29 PM

That's not true. Sherrod Brown did not vote for this. Here is the Roll Call vote". Republican Henry Brown of South Carolina voted for it. Sherrod Brown of Ohio did not.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 30, 2005 7:15:44 PM

David, if you've got a response to Matt's criticism of your piece somewhere, I'll be very happy to read it. If it's convincing, I'll explicitly retract what I've said above. But misrepresenting the positions of other Democrats is something I simply won't stand for. I hate it when Al From does it, and I hate it when his opponents do it.

This is the quote from the Mother Jones piece, and you probably would have done better to cite it in your blog post than the sloppy Blade article:

“To me, a race between two professional politicians is a no-brainer win for DeWine. You’re not gonna throw out a sitting senator in a Republican state with a very liberal Democratic longstanding US congressman.”

The context here involves a possibly good electability argument rather than worthless personal demonization. But it's certainly not something I'm especially happy with Hackett for saying. If Hackett really tries to damage Brown with talk like this, it'll make me less likely to support him. If I were consulting for Hackett, I'd urge my candidate to lay off Brown and beat up on Bush all the time. Democrats love that, and Hackett can do it well when he tries.

I'm willing to give a candidate some wiggle room when he goes from blood-red OH-2 to the more even OH-Sen. If that's all that's going on here, I'm okay with accepting it. Do you have any evidence to suggest that something more than that is going on?

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 30, 2005 7:17:41 PM

On your first point, my article "Debunking Centrism" stands on its own. Matt's entire critque is that he didn't like how I interpreted the DLC's positioning. To argue that the DLC has not pushed Democrats to the right - a right that is not the actual "center" in American politics - is to not be credible.

On the point about Hackett - the bottom line point is this: his campaign seems to want to have it both ways. They want to stress their conservative credentials and criticize Brown's progressive ones as a way to make the electability argument. And again, that's fine. But what's not fine is for the campaigns blog strategy to be to deny that Hackett's campaign is doing just that. He is either the conservative in the primary, or he's not - and what's troubling is the attempt to have it both ways.

Frankly, it insults the intelligence of the blogosphere to be offering one message to the mainstream press (essentially, that Hackett is the conservative and thus can win votes), and another entirely different message to the blogosphere (essentially, that Hackett is the great true progressive champion). Regardless of whichever he actually is we know one thing: he's trying to have it both ways, and that does not bode well if we are serious about putting a known progressive in the U.S. Senate. But then, that's the real question: are people just interested in putting anyone with a D behind their name in the Senate, or do we want to actually see substantive policy leadership and change?

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 30, 2005 7:28:44 PM

Looking at this primary race from way out in the NW (and having given some cash to Hackett in his House race), I'd say that gaining a Dem seat in the Senate is the most important thing for the country and Dem. party. A true liberal would be great, but we can tolerate a moderate from OH if we can elect a majority leader and control the Senate committees.

However, I can't judge from here - and doubt anyone can know at this time - which of the two could actually beat DeWine. I'm not ready to cede that argument to anyone without more facts.

Both Hackett and Brown seem to have some problems both in philosophy and organization. Brown will have trouble getting to the independent or moderate vote with the existing OH Dem. organization. Hackett will have even bigger organization problems, especially if the party organization turns against him because of his primary election behavior. Hackett doesn't seem to have a philosophy except 'moderation' and opposition to Bush and the Iraq situation as it is now. But he has seeming changed his Iraq position several times, and that can be deadly.

I do give Hackett points for being a fresh face with a current military background. That can help, surely.

Why should we be fighting about this choice now? This is one case where the value of a party primary to refine the differennces seems a good idea. By the end of the primary battle (even before the votes are counted) we will know much more about their strengths and weaknesses. Let democracy prevail.

Posted by: JimPortandOR | Oct 30, 2005 7:49:09 PM

David, this is driving me crazy. I'm sorry to disrupt the OH-Sen discussion to bring this point up again, but you really have to take more care about accurately representing other people's arguments.

Your latest victim is Matt Yglesias. You say of his piece that "To argue that the DLC has not pushed Democrats to the right - a right that is not the actual "center" in American politics - is to not be credible." But in his response, Matt never argues that the DLC has not pushed Democrats to the right, and it's perfectly consistent with everything he says to hold that the DLC has pushed Democrats to the right. (I agree with everything in his piece, and I happen to think that the DLC has pushed Democrats to the right, and that we've suffered for it recently.) All Matt does is go through a bunch of positions that you attribute to the DLC and various "moderate" Democrats, and show that the DLC and these Democrats actually oppose these positions.

Now, how do the DLC and self-described "moderates" hurt Democrats? Largely by expending their energies in exaggerating and examining the offenses of liberals, when their energy is really needed to attack powerful Republicans who are doing awful things. By marginalizing liberals, they move politics rightward. One major tool of the marginalization is their failure to seriously examine the arguments that smart liberals offer, and their misattribution of dumb views to many of their left-wing opponents.

You and I agree on a bunch of things, David -- perhaps biggest, that we must always have a populist economic message. But until you take care to accurately represent the views of the people you criticize, you and the DLC will have a lot more in common than you'd like.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 30, 2005 10:04:14 PM

Before I address the main issue here (Hackett v. Brown), I would just, for the record, like to point anyone who is interested to my take on the "too liberal" quote controversy.

Posted by: Dadahead | Oct 30, 2005 10:47:55 PM

"...to be offering one message to the mainstream press ... that Hackett is the conservative ... and another ... message to the blogosphere ... that Hackett is the great true progressive champion ... he's trying to have it both ways."

and why not? this is incredibly smart. let him be everything to everyone, as long as he is honest about his position on the issues.

fwiw, i am not from ohio, and don't have a dog in this fight. both brown and hackett are awesome candidates. though, i don't see how anyone could call hackett a blue dog, or dlc type--he seems very progressive to me, libertarian too, but that is secondary. also, calling hackett a flip-flopper is just silly, both interviews i've read he admits he is still openly grappling with the issue.

for parity, i think all the hackett types who are calling brown a flip-flopper on his decision to get into the race are engaging in the same silliness.

fyi, Hackett on healthcare:

"We live in the greatest nation in the world. We have the best trained most sophisticated healthcare professionals in the world. There is no reason why all Americans shouldn't have affordable access to this system.

Rather than using our tax dollars for corporate welfare, the taxpaying citizens of this nation should have affordable access to our great healthcare infrastructure."

Posted by: colorless green ideas | Oct 30, 2005 10:52:20 PM

Sorry, but I've now just got to respond to the smelly, steaming pile of manure left by Neil in trying to criticize me about my old article in the Nation. You want a response to Yglesias's critique of my piece? Sure, no problem. I dug up my footnoted piece, so here we go...

Yglesias says my point about the DLC disparaging so-called class warfare isn't true, nor is my point that they consistently tell Democrats "not to hammer corporations for their misbehavior and not to push for a serious crackdown on corporate excess." Not true? Bullshit. As just one example, see this where Will Marshall characterizes populism as so-called "anti-business" and "class warfare," claiming it will turn off voters – exactly what I said in my piece.

Yglesias says this statement in my piece is untrue "On taxes, self-described "centrists" like Senator Joe Lieberman, a senior DLC leader, attacked proposals to repeal the Bush tax cuts to pay down the deficit." Then Yglesias goes on to admit my point was, in fact, true, admitting that Lieberman "said was that it would be a mistake to advocate (as Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt did) repealing all of Bush's tax cuts." Exactly.

Finally, Yglesias said it was untrue that the DLC urges, as I said, "Democrats to jettison economic populism, which has been used to elect Democrats in various red regions in America." He claims that the document I cited – the DLC's heartland strategy – doesn't exactly say that. Again, bullshit. And even if you don't believe that it doesn't – the DLC does this ALL THE TIME. In fact, that is what the DLC does – attack economic populism. Al From, the DLC's president, actually publicly BRAGS about this. As reported in the American Prospect, he told reporters that in the 2000 election he "gave [Gore] a game plan to try to contain the populism."

So let's get real – Yglesias's hit piece was typical pathetic, and unsupportable apologism for the DLC and the D.C. establishment that we've all gotten used to. The DLC has tried its level best to move the political "center" far out of the mainstream of political thought OUTSIDE the Beltway. That is a fact. That is what my article proved. Period.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 30, 2005 11:07:10 PM

David, this is driving me crazy. ... Your latest victim is Matt Yglesias.

To be fair to David Sirota, I don't think Yglesias's post accomplishes exactly what you think it does, Neil. More often than not, Yglesias isn't contrasting Sirota's charges with actual fundamental DLC positions, but with the positions of non-DLC Dems which have gotten DLC pats-on-the-back ("Dems of the Week", for example). As any pre-Iraq DLC press on Howard Dean should demonstrate, a nod to an "up and coming" Dem from the DLC hardly constitutes the embrace of every position that Democrat has, and Matt's suggestion of such is misleading at best. So, for that matter, is his use of Marshall Whittman as a handy DLC proxy. Even Ed Kilgore gives constant disclaimers on his blog to the effect that his opinions are not the official word of the DLC, and he's in a better position than Whittman to offer it.

In the case of Joe Lieberman, Yglesias has a pretty bizarre interpretation of both Lieberman's 2004 tax plan and of Jon Cohn's take on Wes Clark's (nowhere does Cohn say that Clark's plan is "less progessive" than Lieberman's; in fact, most took Clark's to be the most progressive plan, since it benefited the poorest citizens the most). Matt also deliberately opts for both the least charitable and the most obtuse interpretation of Sirota's criticism: there's a world of difference between repealing legislation and merely repealing part of that legislation, as was Lieberman's position on the tax cuts. Lieberman himself drew a stark distinction in the primary debates when he insisted that Dean's repeal of the tax cuts would leave Democrats "wandering in the political wilderness."

The only real error in Sirota's piece that Yglesias points out, as far as I can tell, has to do with CAFE standards; the only other official DLC position paper Yglesias cites is regarding Enron, where Matt rather strangely tries to use the DLC's acknowledgement of the GOP's vulnerability to corporate scandals to somehow rebut Sirota's charges that the DLC have historically been reflexively pro-business, which is a strawman argument by any measure. The DLC have been, and continue to be, hostile towards perceived "anti-business" Democrats (as demonstrated by a portion of a DLC memo Matt quotes near the end of his post, apparently in an effort to show - what exactly? The context of the quote merely demonstrates that in addition to being reflexively pro-business, the DLC is also reflexively culturally conservative).

So you can say some parts of Dave Sirota's article are sloppy, Neil, but geez, don't do it by citing a Matt Yglesias post that by any objective measure is twice as shady.

Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 30, 2005 11:27:21 PM

(And no, I don't have a favorite between Hackett and Brown. For now I'm desperate enough to side with the more electable of the two, but Hackett's record - which consists so far of a nice persona and a narrowly-lost special election - doesn't convince me that he's the man to win.)

Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 30, 2005 11:29:25 PM

Mr. Sirota.

You're wrong. Brown of Ohio DID vote for the full bill INCLUDING the amendment. Here is the roll call. My remarks were about the vote for the full bill including the adopted amendment, not simply the vote to include the amendment.

It looks like he was against the amendment before he was for it.

Regards, Cernig.

Posted by: Cernig | Oct 31, 2005 2:26:49 AM

That's right - he did vote for the full bill, but I had thought you were asking about the vote against the specific language in question. It's likely he voted for the full bill because it included huge amounts of money for low-income housing, etc.

It's one of those cases where there may be some things bad in a bill, and other things good, and lawmakers have to choose whether to vote against all the good things in order to protest the bad. It's likely Brown (and the majority of the Democratic Caucus who voted like Brown) didn't want to hold up the overall bill over this admittedly terrible provision. Sadly, under Republican rule, this is how things often go - they package in as much bad stuff with good stuff as they can so as to get it through.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 31, 2005 2:38:37 AM

You're right there - the majority of the Democratic Caucus joined Brown in voting for a bill that will mean non-profits either end voter registration work or watch a billion and more be handed to private landlords and big-money developers.

The amendment is a clear move to sideline advocacy groups and non-profits. The amendment was proposed after:

In a letter dated May 25 to former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), obtained by The NewStandard, members of the Republican Study Committee warned, "[T]he money from this fund could be used to finance third-party advocacy groups that have agendas… that are antagonistic to the free-market principles we value."

Sanders, Pelosi, Conyers, Kucinich - the people we have come to associate with actually caring about the poor - decided to stand by their principles, as did 71 other Democrats.

Here is the New Standard story with plenty of quotes from directors of non-profits.

"To build affordable housing and have to sacrifice nonprofit free speech and advocacy rights is a bargain that, really, nobody should accept." Rick Cohen, executive director of the National Committee for Responsive Philanthropy.

Linda Banks, executive director of the housing provider Southwestern Louisiana Homeless Coalition, fears the rebuilding effort could be hijacked by "private developers that have no clue -- and no compassion for the very-low- and low-income person."

"They’re trying to criminalize democracy while allowing unrestrained, government-subsidized… activities by for-profit companies for their own private gain." Michael Kane, director of the subsidized-housing advocacy group National Association of HUD Tenants.

"You’re left to conclude that people don’t want low-income people to vote." Sheila Crowley, president of the National Low Income Housing Coalition.

Regards, C

Posted by: Cernig | Oct 31, 2005 8:26:55 AM

> He is either the conservative in the primary, or he's not -
> and what's troubling is the attempt to have it both ways.

More binary thinking from Sirota. Create a false argument that Hackett's attacking Sherrod Brown for being "too liberal" and then paint him out to be a flip flopper. Either he's A or he's B.

Life doesn't work like that. There isn't one binary liberal or conservative issue that defines people. Hackett is very "conservative" on guns. He's very much in tune with Sherrod Brown on trade and jobs. He's arguing things very similar to John Kerry on diplomacy.

Please, Mr Sirota, quit using GOP neo-logic to attack Hackett. FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP. If you have a problem with a specific position that Hackett has articulated (if you are having problems finding them, browse through my blog) state it and tell us why you disagree.

There is one major issue that splits Hackett and Brown: guns. Obviously Sirota doesn't want to to argue that issue because he knows that it is a loser for Sherrod Brown. The more Brown stresses his position, the more votes he loses. Better to create straw men and tear them down.

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Posted by: casimira | Oct 11, 2006 1:54:05 PM

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