October 31, 2005
David Sirota and I got into a big fight in the comments of a previous post. He referred to one of my comments criticizing him for misinterpreting other Democrats as a "smelly, steaming pile of manure." Manure is the dung of barnyard animals, and Sirota's comment might thus be taken to liken me to a barnyard animal. This would certainly be a happy thing -- the last two people I know of who were likened to barnyard animals by Sirota were Matt Yglesias and Mark Schmitt. I am pleased to be in such august company!
If you're offended that I just interpreted Sirota's manure comment in a way that doesn't fully comport with his actual intentions, please don't venture below the fold. I'm going to discuss some misreadings by Sirota that are far more drastic.
Yglesias says my point about the DLC disparaging so-called class warfare isn't true, nor is my point that they consistently tell Democrats "not to hammer corporations for their misbehavior and not to push for a serious crackdown on corporate excess." Not true? Bullshit. As just one example, see this where Will Marshall characterizes populism as so-called "anti-business" and "class warfare," claiming it will turn off voters – exactly what I said in my piece.
So what does Will Marshall actually say about class warfare?
The other pitfall Democrats should avoid is trying to trump cultural populism with economic populism. It drives liberals crazy that downscale voters who don't benefit much from GOP economic policies nonetheless backed Bush on cultural grounds. But since most voters don't neatly compartmentalize their ethical and economic concerns, simply turning up the volume on anti-business and class warfare themes isn't likely to change their minds. And heartland voters aren't likely to miss the unflattering implication that they're too dim to realize where their best interests lie.
Instead, Democrats should do a better job of linking their economic interests and moral outlook.
I bolded the "simply" because it's really important. If you're looking for the "anti-business" and "class warfare" bits, they're later in the same sentence. Marshall isn't saying that there's anything wrong with the anti-business class warfare stuff -- he's just saying that you have to do some other stuff too. You have to present it in a different way -- a morally charged way. One of the reasons I like John Edwards so much is that he's good at presenting good solid Democratic economic populism in a morally charged (and patriotic) way -- exactly the way that Will Marshall likes. If Sirota had read carefully, he wouldn't have been upset with this discussion of class warfare, unless he's opposed to moral rhetoric for some reason. He'd just say, "wow, Marshall says I can have all the class warfare and anti-business rhetoric I want, as long as I frame it in solid moral terms. I am a happy Sirota! I love the DLC!" Okay, maybe not that, but you get the idea.
The next bit of wild and wooly Sirota action in the comments is this:
Yglesias says this statement in my piece is untrue "On taxes, self-described "centrists" like Senator Joe Lieberman, a senior DLC leader, attacked proposals to repeal the Bush tax cuts to pay down the deficit." Then Yglesias goes on to admit my point was, in fact, true, admitting that Lieberman "said was that it would be a mistake to advocate (as Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt did) repealing all of Bush's tax cuts." Exactly.
Tell me -- where in Debunking "Debunking 'Centrism' does Matt say that statement is untrue, as Sirota claims? Matt's point, rather, is that Sirota is misleading. If Sirota had been more conscientious in his original piece, he would've pointed out that Lieberman wanted to repeal the parts of the Bush tax cuts that liberals most want to repeal -- the parts that go to the rich. Nowhere in Sirota's piece, "Debunking Centrism," does Sirota let the reader know that Lieberman wanted those most objectionable parts of the Bush cuts to go away. An innocent reader who came to Sirota's piece without knowing about Lieberman's actual tax proposal would think that Lieberman wanted to preserve the Bush tax cuts in their entirety. This wouldn't be an altogether terrible thing for someone to think, since there are plenty of reasons to be upset with Lieberman. Still, authors should strive to not write misleading things.
Now for the last verse, same as the first:
Finally, Yglesias said it was untrue that the DLC urges, as I said, "Democrats to jettison economic populism, which has been used to elect Democrats in various red regions in America." He claims that the document I cited – the DLC's heartland strategy – doesn't exactly say that.
Here we need the untrue/misleading distinction again. Yglesias doesn't say that Sirota said anything untrue -- he just juxtaposes partial quotes from Sirota with their context in the DLC pieces, and says, "that's rather different." The "heartland strategy" document Sirota is talking about is the very one that had the "anti-business" and "class warfare" stuff that was cited at the beginning of this post, and the points Matt made are a lot like the points I made, though he didn't extend the quote to pick up the moral stuff that I liked. (He did include the "simply", though.) Now, about that "Heartland Strategy" document -- Will Marshall never says that Democrats should jettison economic populism. He says they need to infuse it with moral rhetoric and make it all John Edwards awesome. (Marshall does not actually use the phrase "John Edwards awesome.") To show that Marshall isn't an enemy of economic populism, let me just quote another bit from the Marshall piece:
Just as religious advocates of the "Social Gospel" infused early 20th century progressivism with moral fervor, Democrats should couch their social initiatives in the language of faith and morality. The sad truth is that since Clinton's departure, Democrats have had little to say about growing poverty and inequality in America. Surely, they are moral issues no less than abortion and gay marriage, and they give Democrats an opportunity to speak unambiguously of right and wrong.
It's fairly populist to recommend saying more about "growing poverty and inequality" in a morally charged way. If someone were telling you to jettison economic populism, they probably wouldn't be saying something like that.
Sirota's last claim (which wasn't discussed in "Debunking 'Centrism'" or criticized in the Yglesias piece, as far as I can tell):
In fact, that is what the DLC does – attack economic populism. Al From, the DLC's president, actually publicly BRAGS about this. As reported in the American Prospect, he told reporters that in the 2000 election he "gave [Gore] a game plan to try to contain the populism."
Now let's see the context:
I talked to [Bob] Shrum, [Stanley] Greenberg, [Carter] Eskew, and Tad Devine," he says. "I did a memo to Gore. I actually gave him a game plan to try to contain the populism in a way that would do the least damage."
Wait... it looks like Sirota actually got the context right this time! Hooray for you, David Sirota! That didn't hurt, did it? Because that's what it feels like when you quote something correctly and in a non-misleading way. If you're ever wondering whether you're citing people the right way or the wrong way, look back at that statement, because that's the right way to do it! You have successfully shown me that Al From tried to hold back Gore's populism, and I believe you.
For the time being, however, it might be best for us not to put too much weight on Sirota's citations of other people, until he gets used to attributing views to those who hold them in a non-misleading way. As I said in the comments, I actually agree with him on a fair number of things, and I think he's a pretty solid and productive activist. There's nothing wrong here that a good education in reading comprehension and correct citation from a friendly barnyard werewolf couldn't cure.
October 31, 2005 | Permalink
TrackBack URL for this entry:
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Moo!:
Tracked on Dec 9, 2005 7:46:13 PM
Tracked on Dec 9, 2005 7:47:19 PM
Hilarious. I must say - I never thought I would see the day where people would argue with a straight face that the DLC has not argued against so-called "class warfare," and has not disparaged populism as "anti-business." Really. Truly. Incredible...and funny, to boot.
Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 31, 2005 2:06:56 AM
For further proof...
"Avoid 'class warfare,' former Clinton pollster Mark Penn preached to the DLC crowd [Penn is the DLC's lead pollster]." - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 8/4/02
"And despite the DLC's caution against the kind of populist rhetoric Republicans often characterize as "class warfare," Clinton said that Democrats believe that "a rising tide lifts all boats" but "some in the other party believe keeping people in steerage provides balance." - Cox News Service, 7/29/02
"DLC leaders have openly criticized Gore,
another longtime DLC disciple, for a campaign they saw as heavy on class warfare and light on the centrist values of those who call themselves 'New Democrats.'" - USA Today, 7/17/01
"One sign of growing division among Democrats was the recent broadside from the Democratic Leadership Council against the party's liberal wing. In a sharply worded policy critique, the DLC attacked the class warfare strategy used by Al Gore and other party leaders last year that it said was out of step with the "new economy" and a new electorate that was "more politically moderate and more skeptical of big government programs."" - Washington Times, 2/11/01
""His anti-corporate populism and pro-government message resulted in his being viewed as a liberal advocate of big government," wrote Al From, the DLC's president. "By emphasizing class warfare, he seemed to be talking to Industrial Age America, not Information Age America."" - Richmond Times Dispatch, 1/21/01
So let me just say in closing, Neil: get your facts straight before you go off on a rant. Otherwise, your rants look more like a punchline than serious writing.
Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 31, 2005 2:14:18 AM
I'm glad you found this funny, David! It was lots of fun to write.
Now, there's one thing we've got to get clear on. Let's look at your first comment here:
I never thought I would see the day where people would argue with a straight face that the DLC has not argued against so-called "class warfare," and has not disparaged populism as "anti-business.
My argument in the above post is not: "The DLC hasn't argued against so-called class warfare! And it doesn't disparage populism as anti-business!" If this was my claim, your quotes above might be effective against it.
My argument in the above post is: "When David Sirota cited a bunch of stuff, he didn't read it carefully and misrepresented the authors' views." Adding further quotes from other places doesn't do much to defeat this argument.
See, I'm not especially interested in defending the DLC. As I said in some previous comments, I don't like them all that much. In this post, I'm just interested in making sure that you, David Sirota, become a better reader of and responder to other peoples' writing. This is because you are an influential Democratic activist, and I don't want influential Democratic activists to throw discussions of strategy into confusion by misrepresenting each others' arguments and failing to respond to the most important parts of each others' points.
If you don't believe that I'd be interested in this, let me tell you what I do for a living. I'm a grad student in a philosophy department. For several years, I was a teaching assistant, and a big part of my job was to read things students wrote about hard-to-understand philosophers, and grade them based on whether they correctly understood what the philosophers were saying. I think these skills are very important, because without them, discussions of complicated things don't end up going anywhere. Political strategy isn't quite as complicated as philosophy, but it is pretty complicated, and I want to make sure that Democrats' discussions of it are productive and useful.
Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 31, 2005 2:53:35 AM
Neil, did you read my comment to your post below? If you're going to make this much of Sirota's article, you should address the claim that Yglesias's post is shoddily written.
Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 31, 2005 6:51:52 AM
Off Topic: Better get your abortions while you can ladys. "Scalito" Judge Alito is coming to get you!
'Grey skys are gonna clear up,
Put on a happy face.'
Things are looking up for conservatives!
Posted by: Captain Toke | Oct 31, 2005 8:34:19 AM
"In this post, I'm just interested in making sure that you... become a better reader of and responder to other peoples' writing."
This, of course, is precisely the problem with Yglesias's response to Sirota's article: it's sloppy at best and intentionally misleading at worst, claiming non-representative and less-than-authoritative sources to represent the core policies of the DLC, intentionally misconstruing Joe Lieberman's own stated position on the Bush tax cuts, and generally cherrypicking quotes and sources. These are all errors that Yglesias makes, and citing that post as evidence for why Sirota should be more careful with what he writes demonstrates either ignorance or hypocrisy.
I suspect it's easier to accuse Sirota of sloppiness than it is to do so of Yglesias because we expect Angry Activists to be just too firey to help themselves from making mistakes in their terrible and oh-so-misguided fervor, while we imagine our pundits to be a bizarre sort of modern-day philosopher class who stroke their chins and meditate calmly over a glass of wine before every column. Of course, this is silly: competing pressures to out-predict, out-conform and out-debunk are what ultimately shape the drives of the commentariat, have precious little to do with accurate or honest political commentary, and only add to the allure of reflexive contrarianism. Nevertheless, such is the case, and while it may be less likely that Matt Yglesias would refer to criticism as "manure," it's also far less likely that he'd get such a condescending post written about him telling him to shape the hell up.
Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 31, 2005 8:42:49 AM
Neil, you are my favorite werewolf.
Posted by: Blar | Oct 31, 2005 10:18:43 AM
"It's fairly populist to recommend saying more about "growing poverty and inequality" in a morally charged way." (Neil, in the body of the article) Excellent stuff and attitude. I like it. Are we going to finally get a progressive populist of faith and principles to run in '08 and to reclaim America from '09 onwards?
Captain Toke, is jeering your recommendation of how to reform sex-education? Actually, this matter as well (just like economic populism) would be better off if dealt with in a moral tenor, instead of ground up between the parties. If you are able to see and appreciate a true moral commitment, even if opposed to yours, I invite you to read here. If, however, you are just hanging around to taunt and terrify people who have, by majority, proved irresponsible, certainly, but are still desperate human beings in need for help, good examples and right incentives, not of the political pillory, in that case may I courteously invite you to SHUT UP ?!
Posted by: Martin Bauer | Oct 31, 2005 1:42:25 PM
"Captain Toke, is jeering your recommendation of how to reform sex-education?"
It means if you have a baby in your belly you want to kill, or if you just want have unprotected sex and not have to deal with the consequences of your actions, you better hurry up.
Posted by: Captain Toke | Oct 31, 2005 3:05:49 PM
Ah, now I see, you were just trying to be shrewd and helpful. Sorry, my name is Martin, I happen to just have no baby in my belly which I "want to kill", nor do I suppose that many of the others who posted here do. Why not turn to some women's magazine with your advice? There you will find the specimen of humans who steadily thirst for doing such things.
Posted by: Martin Bauer | Oct 31, 2005 5:46:16 PM
Martin, you asked:
"Are we going to finally get a progressive populist of faith and principles to run in '08 and to reclaim America from '09 onwards?"
Let me here suggest, as I did above, that John Edwards is the man you're looking for. I encourage you to support him if he runs (and he almost certainly will) in 2008.
Lungfish, I have to say that I don't see the problems with the Yglesias piece that you do. I see the dialectic like this: Sirota makes a bunch of charges (very poorly sourced and with few quotes -- I mean, go back and read "Debunking 'Centrism'.") Yglesias rightly points out that the quotes are often taken out of context, as I show in this post. Some of his "New Dem of the Week" comments don't prove what he wants them to prove, but they show that the reality is a lot more complicated than Sirota thinks. And Matt's conclusions, stated at the end of his piece, are small enough for his arguments to support them.
One other thing that probably should be pointed out is that Sirota's quotes that actually work against the DLC all come from 2002 or before. If the DLC warmed to populism, David Sirota would be the last to know.
Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 31, 2005 9:14:57 PM
Neil, I pretty much liked John Edwards for some time last year, but then got baffled because he didn't seem to mark any accent during the campaign and even looked positively weak in his tv-debate with Cheney.
Please give me a clue what Edwards is up to doing now. Does he even contemplate a run in '08, he rarely gets even a scarce mention among the possibles. Well, maybe that's just the way we should support him. Surely, but, on the other hand,
there is a growing tide up people getting impressed by Al Gore and vowing that he has changed or gained experience in a decisive way since the 2000 debacle. Do you think (or are you een sure) these people are fooling themselves, or is there no real contradiction between supporting both, after all?
Posted by: Martin Bauer | Nov 1, 2005 2:52:44 AM
"I encourage you to support him if he runs (and he almost certainly will) in 2008." Oh bad, I didn't read your lines very well before answering back. Anyhow, HOW is he preparing for '08 right now. And what about Al Gore? Does Edwards do anything comparable to the background work Gore is said to do with CURRENT TV or of Howard Dean at the DNC? Just drop me a hint or two, please.
Posted by: Martin Bauer | Nov 1, 2005 5:06:20 AM
Right now he's gone to UNC to start an academic center on dealing with poverty. I'm pretty excited about the fact that he's talking with a bunch of smart sociologists about how to deal with these problems, and it shows up in some of the new ideas in his speeches (especially about helping poor people build assets). He's also going around the country and giving speeches to discuss poverty in America and encourage college students to do more volunteer work. I attended one of them, and got to as him some questions afterwards -- my report is here. When asked about whether he's running again, he just says that he's not thinking about that right now and he's just interested in going around and doing what he's doing. This is what somebody running for president probably should be saying at this point.
Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Nov 1, 2005 4:43:42 PM
As for Gore, I think he's given some excellent speeches that diagnose serious problems with our political culture. That's why a lot of liberals like him. But I don't see how he'll win over the swing voter groups that elections depend on. I've argued this at greater length here.
Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Nov 1, 2005 4:46:04 PM
Thank you, Neil, for your links. Yes, I guess, Edwards would really make an awesome president. Anyhow, your argument on Gore doesn’t fully convince me, I caught myself nodding at reading Justin Tiehen’s opinion, on that link you gave me to your own forum. Well, I’m German, maybe I’m just a bit too far away to guess what swing voters may warm up to in election year. I think, I’ll take favourably to both possibilities. Why not a Gore-Edwards ticket in '08, (- or let it be Edwards-Gore (smiley)) We certainly agree that both would be orders of magnitude better than being regaled with the spectacle of Hillary being bashed for an "ultra-liberal" profile while actually holding an agenda that would not even come close to better the lives of lower classes enough for them to survive the next Republican assault on White House.
Posted by: Martin Bauer | Nov 3, 2005 1:08:28 PM
logiciel photo video logiciel lecture dvd comparaison logiciel paie logiciel paie grille indiciaire logiciel mac logiciel bulletin paie gratuit questionnaire ligne logiciel telecharger logiciel pour telecharger de la musique logiciel gravure cd dvd libre logiciel gratuit planning telechargement logiciel power point logiciel gratuit de comptabilite familiale logiciel comptabilite sur internet telechargement and gratuit and and logiciel and educatif logiciel montage video telechargement logiciel gravure dvd et crack logiciel architecture free logiciel comptabilite personnel gratuit sous dos logiciel avast antivirus logiciel telechargement film gratuit logiciel comptabilite generale telechargement gratuit logiciel telecharger logiciel photo logiciel paie grh logiciel pluviometrie excel logiciel pour faire un video logiciel de traduction japonais logiciel pour couper un mp3 logiciel clip video logiciel dessin architecte logiciel de traduction francais portugais logiciel excel telecharger logiciel and capture and video tous logiciel retouche photo logiciel de traduction italien a francais logiciel de montage photo francais gps logiciel pda logiciel gratuit convertisseur mp3 logiciel gestion retraite logiciel pour convertir cd audio en mp3 logiciel de retouche de photo a telecharger logiciel lecture video logiciel gestion carriere logiciel tomtom pda logiciel pda gratuit logiciel montage photo numerique logiciel modifier excel logiciel gestion des achat excel 2000 logiciel logiciel mixage musique dj logiciel dessin technique gratuit logiciel sauvegarde navman film logiciel psp logiciel compression psp defition logiciel libre logiciel divx francais logiciel de sauvegarde bande logiciel and sauvegarde gratuit logiciel educatif achat logiciel jeu logiciel gravure dvd graveur dvd samsung pocket pc logiciel gratuit logiciel libre gpl gnu logiciel mp3 psp logiciel and telephone and main and libre amateur fhoto charme
amateur couple real
amateur photo gratuite
amateur photo porno
188.8.131.52 amateur anna video
amatrice femme mure
amatrice beurette lyonnaise
amatrice gratuit vieille
amateur pornographique femme mure
amateur and gay
amateur x video
amateur facials sunshine
amateur pic gros cul femme noir
amatrice nu enceinte
amatrice chatte rasee gratuit
amatrice gros sein free
amateur voyeur teen
dvd partouze amateur
annuaire amatrice nu
contributtiion photo couple amateur
australian teen amateur
casting acteur porno amateur belgique
contribution exhib amateur
atlas radio amateur org
casting mod le photo amateur nu charme
charme site amateur
annonces couple amateur libertinage
couple libertin amateur
exhib nature amateur page perso
ebony amateur cum
couple amateur libertin porno gay amateur porno video amateur travesti dominique amateur radio amateur pirate porno lesbien amateur gratuit salope mature amatrice teen amateur neighbour privee exhibitionniste amateur libre acces travesti amateur exhib string photo amateur real amateur boob porno contribution amateur gratuit video amateur cul blonde video porno extrait gratuit amateur amatrice salope gratuit video hard amateur gratuite video baise amateur pulsession video franccaise amateur x collegiennes amatrice gratuit photo femme amatrice video amatrice clubamatrice site perso sophie lange nu amatrice xxx amateur mature jeune perso photo amatrice video nu amatrice video amateur x photo amatrice x gratuit photo amatrice gratuit video amatrice noire video soiree amateur intime voyeur amateur site perso photo amatrice quarantaine jeune amatrice porno contribution amatrice couple coquin amatrice chipie perso avec copine amatrice galerie gros cul amatrice jeune amatrice cul jeune and amatrice amatrice bas collant sophie galerie amatrice nu blog amatrice suce jeune coquin amatrice perso amatrice hard photo amatrice cul echangiste et amatrice herault femme couple julie photo video amatrice contribution femme amatrice jaquette film ocean eleven jacquette de film telechargement gratui film x film erotique produit celine martin pamela anderson film x demo film x extrait de film a l affiche affiche film alexandre film cul musique de film western film x gratuit gay comment telecharger film pornographique affiche film star wars 1 telecharger film et chanson film x telechargement gratuit musique du film pour la peau d un flic musique du film talons aiguille extrait de film x gratuit sans telechargement film pornographique karin schubert clipart jaquette film film x tv musique film et serie film x avec animal telechargement film zoophile film porno bresilien film x hard extrait achat film pornographique festival du film namur film sortis au cinema montreal festival international film production de film pour le cinema festival film sur environnement film pornographique orientale bande annonce film gay film xxx gratuit vieille pute xxx film porno clara morgane.com film gay etranger vieux film porno extrait film video porno xxx gratuite film porno de paris hilton location dvd film film and de and cul and gratuit production film gay bareback film gratuit amateur film x video francaise amateur cannes film festival extrait de film d horreur film x telecharger francais bande originale film jacky brown bande originale film donjon et dragons x and gratuit and film and x and gratuit and extrait film x gratuit offerts telechargement film x gratuit 100 telecharger gratuit film x jaquette film x film x clara morgane canal film x musique film ne nous fachons pas pamela anderson film x fextrait film x gratuit telecharge film x gratuit voir film x gratuit extrait gratuit film x avec bruitage film porno gratuit film x gratuit jaquette dvd operation pacifique film telechargement film ghost in shell vos plus belle musique de film film divx telechargement film hard x gratuit film porno sans telechargement telechargement de film sur internet film porno vision de film x gratuit film a bulle actrice de film x telechargement dvd film film x telechargement musique du film closer telecharger film porno gratuitement telecharger film erotique jaquette et film film erotique france film divx telecharger affiche film ray affiche film romeo juliet film cul amateur gratuit russe jaquette arc ciel film film gratuit erotique film cul hard affiche film honey emule jaquette film video film erotique jaquette film madagascar affiche cinema affiche film affiche film film divx gratuit telecharger telecharger film porno black download and film and divx and telecharger cul film extrait film jolie bite cul femme film cul telecharger film x sans telecharger affiche film grease film erotique direct affiche film bollywood poster jaquette and and film and and telecharger film cul prof comment telecharger film pornographique affiche film porno film x gratuit telecharger acteur gay americain film pornographique gratuie dvd film jean gabin film entreprise boulogne festival du film erotique film horreur torture dvd film guerre film dvd pornographique festival du film de valenciennes telecharger film horreur pas encore sortie cinema gratuitement dvd film chucky emule nouveaute film horreur vente dvd film festival international du film de marrakech scenario film entreprise festival de film chinois festival film documentaire festival film deauville locarno film festival gratuit extrait film xxx domain videohardq.com festival film locarno film pornographique avec bande annonce gratuite documentary film festival film pornographique en ligne festival film dinard film porno black film de cul a telecharger gratuit extrait film x gratuite amateur film film amateur gratuit film et horaire cinema film amateur telecharger gratuitement x and gratuit and film and x and gratuit and extrait and video and video and clip and video cinema film a telecharger dragon ball z le film au cinema xxx gratuit nudite cinema film film amateur voir u.g.c cinema mondeville heure film film amateur francais extrait film x zoophile tous les film au cinema bande annonces de film xxx film video cul gratuit film gay etranger film amateur annee folle bande annonce film xxx telecharger film cul amateur gratuit film amateur somme telecharger film divx xxx film hard xxx gratuit cinema extrait film x resume film cinema and island and film film porno pamela anderson film porno clara morgane hard vison film gratuit direct film action cinema boutique tsr film action dvd film porno a telecharger gratuit film x telecharger dsl bande originale de film save the last dance film video x hard film and gay and amateur bande originale film mp3 free film hard sans payer telecharger film x porno gratuit actrice de film hard cul vieille film gratuit jacquette film otage telecharger film x clara morgane film cul sodomie fellation gratuit bande originale du film alexandre bande originale film mr mrs smith jacquette film harry potter bande originale film youngblood bande originale film homme preferent grosse telecharger jacquette cd de film film gratuit porno jacquette film cassette video film porno black cite telechargement musique gratuit telechargement musique et film gratuit graver musique techno gratuit musique yahoo fr musique religieuse mariage telecharger des musique sur mon ordinateur gratuitement top 50 des meilleur musique telechargement and gratuit and musique radio de musique techno telechargement musique wma gratuite launch la musique sur yahoo telechargement film et musique gratuit yahoo musique radio telecharger gratuitement un logiciel de musique telechargement legal gratuit musique telechargement legale et gratuit musique musique star wars a telecharger gratuitement telecharger des film et des musique gratuitement telechargement and musique and telechargement musique gratuite musique bal mariage valse musique a telecharger gratuitement et legalement repertoire musique karaoka telechargement gratuit chanteur qua becois lecteur numerique musique creative telechargement and musique and gratuit and telechargement gratuit chanson parole et musique chanson francaise musique classic francaise musique monde creation e musique musique midi files musique pop des annee 80 musique des serie tv des annee 80 groupe musique monde toulouse musique annee 70 a 80 ecole musique enfant region yvelines chanson enfant musique musique le monde est stone logiciel musique version francaise spectacle musique enfant belgique station radio musique annee 80 mariage meilleur ami musique ecole musique enfant paris musique autre enfant compositeur musique film seul monde rfi musique du monde et incarnatus cererols musique midi creation musique electro musique francaise roulotte 1946 musique nuptiales mariage patricia kaas musique midi rochette guy musique monde cours musique enfant peymeinade association apprendre musique enfant musique midi metal gear solid 3 music and format and midi and musique and midi and midi files apprendre musique enfant cours console musique orientale musique bo te musique doctissimo.com cours de musique nantes cite de telechargement de musique gratuit ecouter gratuitement musique new wave mecanisme bo te a musique musique telechargeable gratuitement rap francais musique rap et islam festival musique militaire mp3 and musique and militaire musique militaire allemande 1940 cours musique trompette trompette monter bo te musique musique orientale gratuit instru musique rap cours musique adulte ecoute de musique antillaise cours de musique guitare groupe de musique antillaise extrait musique orientale chant et musique militaire cours de musique lille ours bo te musique telechargement and gratuit and musique and logiciel musique cours de musique musique opium militaire telecharger musique graduite rap magasin vente instrument musique top 100 des musique francophone ecole musique aquitaine festival musique luxey vente batterie musique festival musique province qc magasin musique suisse festival musique latine musique note magasin and and musique ecole municipale musique ecole musique saint rambert festival musique loire juin telecharger logiciel creer musique pc musique ecole primaire top musique 2005 festival musique septembre magasin musique 95 magasin musique occasion batterie tama musique note musique en gif dessin de note de musique woodstock festival 1698 musique ultra top musique police note musique nom exact troisieme note musique police caractere note musique music magasin intrusments musique creer musique ligne ecole musique lyon convertisseur fichier musique mp3 telechargement musique ecouter de la musique celtique mp3 telechargement de musique gratuite groupe anglais musique 1980 musique hit parade recherche musique publicite musique kabyle d algerie groupe de musique americain video clip musique latino musique publicite peugeot 1007 musique nouveaute 2005 association musique electronique musique publicite renault espace musique publicite audi quattro musique publicite krys classement musique electronique hit musique 2005 musique gratuie mp3 telechargement musique publicite nescafe musique and bretonne achat instrument musique batterie groupe de musique europe m6 musique hit musique film hit avec robert niro nouveaute hit musique chanson hit musique forum musique electronique groupe musique gitane ecouter musique bretonne comment mettre musique fond msn space concert musique indienne marseille mp3 classement musique m6 musique dessin anime roi lion walt disney extrait musique basque logiciel mp3 extrait musique trance comment ecouter extrait musique candy shop musique and country achat lecteur mp3 convertisseur wma mp3 musique mp3 lorie gratuit musique mixer gratuit tele charme musique mp3 rap recherche musique danse soiree country msn musique off wall concert musique bresilienne apprendre gratuitement danser country musique video traduction and musique musique latino gratuite mp3 clip musique voir musique danse country musique portugaise tony carreira lecteur mp3 mp3 and logiciel and gratuit and telecharger and musique chanteur de musique country cd mp3 mp3 gratuit mp3 free tight ass fucking nice amateur ass best ass teen hot ass pussy ass bare fat pic showing woman ass big black free fat ass butt hot gay ass nice hot ass brazil ass ass shot brutal ass fucking ass fingering big tit round ass facegoo big boob big ass teen ass fucking ashlee ass big round tit woman with nice round ass nice ass in tight jeans ass fuck parade hot anime ass virgin ass fucking asian ass fuck ass cum ass big round stella tit ass bush george hole ass hole slut ass traffic .com free ass to mouth clip ass teen jeans ass phat woman ass black phat video ass gay hot licking littel ass babe mouth ass phat brazilian tight ass nude big ass black woman ass butt chew mouth poop seefood shannon shoes sneaker ass round white big black ass video clip ass like that eminem download ass first then mouth big ass licking ass hole suck ass clit story tight perfect lesbian ass ass juicy round latina ass and pussy bare ass site myspace.com whipped ass preview ass huge n tit wife cum in the ass gallery picture of womens ass ghetto ass site myspace.com rate that ass big tit large ass woman who lick ass free huge ass cum in his ass asian ass sluts our bare ass brazilian ass pic vida guerra ass picture roses ass site myspace.com mature ass picture
Logiciel Zone..Download the Best Programas To maximize the functioning of your PC.
Posted by: Tl�loc | Sep 20, 2006 7:54:11 PM
The comments to this entry are closed.