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October 31, 2005

Moo!

By Neil the Ethical Werewolf

David Sirota and I got into a big fight in the comments of a previous post.  He referred to one of my comments criticizing him for misinterpreting other Democrats as a "smelly, steaming pile of manure."  Manure is the dung of barnyard animals, and Sirota's comment might thus be taken to liken me to a barnyard animal.  This would certainly be a happy thing -- the last two people I know of who were likened to barnyard animals by Sirota were Matt Yglesias and Mark Schmitt.  I am pleased to be in such august company! 

If you're offended that I just interpreted Sirota's manure comment in a way that doesn't fully comport with his actual intentions, please don't venture below the fold.  I'm going to discuss some misreadings by Sirota that are far more drastic. 

Much of the discussion between me and Sirota concerns Sirota's piece, Debunking 'Centrism', and Matt's response, Debunking "Debunking 'Centrism'".  Here's Sirota in the comments:

Yglesias says my point about the DLC disparaging so-called class warfare isn't true, nor is my point that they consistently tell Democrats "not to hammer corporations for their misbehavior and not to push for a serious crackdown on corporate excess." Not true? Bullshit. As just one example, see this where Will Marshall characterizes populism as so-called "anti-business" and "class warfare," claiming it will turn off voters – exactly what I said in my piece.

So what does Will Marshall actually say about class warfare? 

The other pitfall Democrats should avoid is trying to trump cultural populism with economic populism. It drives liberals crazy that downscale voters who don't benefit much from GOP economic policies nonetheless backed Bush on cultural grounds. But since most voters don't neatly compartmentalize their ethical and economic concerns, simply turning up the volume on anti-business and class warfare themes isn't likely to change their minds. And heartland voters aren't likely to miss the unflattering implication that they're too dim to realize where their best interests lie.

Instead, Democrats should do a better job of linking their economic interests and moral outlook.

I bolded the "simply" because it's really important.  If you're looking for the "anti-business" and "class warfare" bits, they're later in the same sentence.  Marshall isn't saying that there's anything wrong with the anti-business class warfare stuff -- he's just saying that you have to do some other stuff too.  You have to present it in a different way -- a morally charged way.  One of the reasons I like John Edwards so much is that he's good at presenting good solid Democratic economic populism in a morally charged (and patriotic) way -- exactly the way that Will Marshall likes.  If Sirota had read carefully, he wouldn't have been upset with this discussion of class warfare, unless he's opposed to moral rhetoric for some reason.  He'd just say, "wow, Marshall says I can have all the class warfare and anti-business rhetoric I want, as long as I frame it in solid moral terms.  I am a happy Sirota!  I love the DLC!"  Okay, maybe not that, but you get the idea. 

The next bit of wild and wooly Sirota action in the comments is this:

Yglesias says this statement in my piece is untrue "On taxes, self-described "centrists" like Senator Joe Lieberman, a senior DLC leader, attacked proposals to repeal the Bush tax cuts to pay down the deficit." Then Yglesias goes on to admit my point was, in fact, true, admitting that Lieberman "said was that it would be a mistake to advocate (as Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt did) repealing all of Bush's tax cuts." Exactly.

Tell me -- where in Debunking "Debunking 'Centrism' does Matt say that statement is untrue, as Sirota claims?  Matt's point, rather, is that Sirota is misleading.  If Sirota had been more conscientious in his original piece, he would've pointed out that Lieberman wanted to repeal the parts of the Bush tax cuts that liberals most want to repeal -- the parts that go to the rich.  Nowhere in Sirota's piece, "Debunking Centrism," does Sirota let the reader know that Lieberman wanted those most objectionable parts of the Bush cuts to go away.  An innocent reader who came to Sirota's piece without knowing about Lieberman's actual tax proposal would think that Lieberman wanted to preserve the Bush tax cuts in their entirety.  This wouldn't be an altogether terrible thing for someone to think, since there are plenty of reasons to be upset with Lieberman.  Still, authors should strive to not write misleading things. 

Now for the last verse, same as the first:

Finally, Yglesias said it was untrue that the DLC urges, as I said, "Democrats to jettison economic populism, which has been used to elect Democrats in various red regions in America." He claims that the document I cited – the DLC's heartland strategy – doesn't exactly say that.

Here we need the untrue/misleading distinction again.  Yglesias doesn't say that Sirota said anything untrue -- he just juxtaposes partial quotes from Sirota with their context in the DLC pieces, and says, "that's rather different."  The "heartland strategy" document Sirota is talking about is the very one that had the "anti-business" and "class warfare" stuff that was cited at the beginning of this post, and the points Matt made are a lot like the points I made, though he didn't extend the quote to pick up the moral stuff that I liked.  (He did include the "simply", though.) Now, about that "Heartland Strategy" document -- Will Marshall never says that Democrats should jettison economic populism.  He says they need to infuse it with moral rhetoric and make it all John Edwards awesome.  (Marshall does not actually use the phrase "John Edwards awesome.")  To show that Marshall isn't an enemy of economic populism, let me just quote another bit from the Marshall piece:

Just as religious advocates of the "Social Gospel" infused early 20th century progressivism with moral fervor, Democrats should couch their social initiatives in the language of faith and morality. The sad truth is that since Clinton's departure, Democrats have had little to say about growing poverty and inequality in America. Surely, they are moral issues no less than abortion and gay marriage, and they give Democrats an opportunity to speak unambiguously of right and wrong.

It's fairly populist to recommend saying more about "growing poverty and inequality" in a morally charged way.  If someone were telling you to jettison economic populism, they probably wouldn't be saying something like that. 

Sirota's last claim (which wasn't discussed in "Debunking 'Centrism'" or criticized in the Yglesias piece, as far as I can tell):

In fact, that is what the DLC does – attack economic populism. Al From, the DLC's president, actually publicly BRAGS about this. As reported in the American Prospect, he told reporters that in the 2000 election he "gave [Gore] a game plan to try to contain the populism."

Now let's see the context:

I talked to [Bob] Shrum, [Stanley] Greenberg, [Carter] Eskew, and Tad Devine," he says. "I did a memo to Gore. I actually gave him a game plan to try to contain the populism in a way that would do the least damage."

Wait... it looks like Sirota actually got the context right this time!  Hooray for you, David Sirota!  That didn't hurt, did it?  Because that's what it feels like when you quote something correctly and in a non-misleading way.  If you're ever wondering whether you're citing people the right way or the wrong way, look back at that statement, because that's the right way to do it!   You have successfully shown me that Al From tried to hold back Gore's populism, and I believe you. 

For the time being, however, it might be best for us not to put too much weight on Sirota's citations of other people, until he gets used to attributing views to those who hold them in a non-misleading way.  As I said in the comments, I actually agree with him on a fair number of things, and I think he's a pretty solid and productive activist.  There's nothing wrong here that a good education in reading comprehension and correct citation from a friendly barnyard werewolf couldn't cure. 

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Comments

Hilarious. I must say - I never thought I would see the day where people would argue with a straight face that the DLC has not argued against so-called "class warfare," and has not disparaged populism as "anti-business." Really. Truly. Incredible...and funny, to boot.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 31, 2005 2:06:56 AM

For further proof...

"Avoid 'class warfare,' former Clinton pollster Mark Penn preached to the DLC crowd [Penn is the DLC's lead pollster]." - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 8/4/02

"And despite the DLC's caution against the kind of populist rhetoric Republicans often characterize as "class warfare," Clinton said that Democrats believe that "a rising tide lifts all boats" but "some in the other party believe keeping people in steerage provides balance." - Cox News Service, 7/29/02

"DLC leaders have openly criticized Gore,
another longtime DLC disciple, for a campaign they saw as heavy on class warfare and light on the centrist values of those who call themselves 'New Democrats.'" - USA Today, 7/17/01

"One sign of growing division among Democrats was the recent broadside from the Democratic Leadership Council against the party's liberal wing. In a sharply worded policy critique, the DLC attacked the class warfare strategy used by Al Gore and other party leaders last year that it said was out of step with the "new economy" and a new electorate that was "more politically moderate and more skeptical of big government programs."" - Washington Times, 2/11/01

""His anti-corporate populism and pro-government message resulted in his being viewed as a liberal advocate of big government," wrote Al From, the DLC's president. "By emphasizing class warfare, he seemed to be talking to Industrial Age America, not Information Age America."" - Richmond Times Dispatch, 1/21/01

So let me just say in closing, Neil: get your facts straight before you go off on a rant. Otherwise, your rants look more like a punchline than serious writing.

Posted by: David Sirota | Oct 31, 2005 2:14:18 AM

I'm glad you found this funny, David! It was lots of fun to write.

Now, there's one thing we've got to get clear on. Let's look at your first comment here:


I never thought I would see the day where people would argue with a straight face that the DLC has not argued against so-called "class warfare," and has not disparaged populism as "anti-business.

My argument in the above post is not: "The DLC hasn't argued against so-called class warfare! And it doesn't disparage populism as anti-business!" If this was my claim, your quotes above might be effective against it.

My argument in the above post is: "When David Sirota cited a bunch of stuff, he didn't read it carefully and misrepresented the authors' views." Adding further quotes from other places doesn't do much to defeat this argument.

See, I'm not especially interested in defending the DLC. As I said in some previous comments, I don't like them all that much. In this post, I'm just interested in making sure that you, David Sirota, become a better reader of and responder to other peoples' writing. This is because you are an influential Democratic activist, and I don't want influential Democratic activists to throw discussions of strategy into confusion by misrepresenting each others' arguments and failing to respond to the most important parts of each others' points.

If you don't believe that I'd be interested in this, let me tell you what I do for a living. I'm a grad student in a philosophy department. For several years, I was a teaching assistant, and a big part of my job was to read things students wrote about hard-to-understand philosophers, and grade them based on whether they correctly understood what the philosophers were saying. I think these skills are very important, because without them, discussions of complicated things don't end up going anywhere. Political strategy isn't quite as complicated as philosophy, but it is pretty complicated, and I want to make sure that Democrats' discussions of it are productive and useful.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 31, 2005 2:53:35 AM

Neil, did you read my comment to your post below? If you're going to make this much of Sirota's article, you should address the claim that Yglesias's post is shoddily written.

Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 31, 2005 6:51:52 AM

Off Topic: Better get your abortions while you can ladys. "Scalito" Judge Alito is coming to get you!

'Grey skys are gonna clear up,
Put on a happy face.'

Things are looking up for conservatives!

Posted by: Captain Toke | Oct 31, 2005 8:34:19 AM

"In this post, I'm just interested in making sure that you... become a better reader of and responder to other peoples' writing."

This, of course, is precisely the problem with Yglesias's response to Sirota's article: it's sloppy at best and intentionally misleading at worst, claiming non-representative and less-than-authoritative sources to represent the core policies of the DLC, intentionally misconstruing Joe Lieberman's own stated position on the Bush tax cuts, and generally cherrypicking quotes and sources. These are all errors that Yglesias makes, and citing that post as evidence for why Sirota should be more careful with what he writes demonstrates either ignorance or hypocrisy.

I suspect it's easier to accuse Sirota of sloppiness than it is to do so of Yglesias because we expect Angry Activists to be just too firey to help themselves from making mistakes in their terrible and oh-so-misguided fervor, while we imagine our pundits to be a bizarre sort of modern-day philosopher class who stroke their chins and meditate calmly over a glass of wine before every column. Of course, this is silly: competing pressures to out-predict, out-conform and out-debunk are what ultimately shape the drives of the commentariat, have precious little to do with accurate or honest political commentary, and only add to the allure of reflexive contrarianism. Nevertheless, such is the case, and while it may be less likely that Matt Yglesias would refer to criticism as "manure," it's also far less likely that he'd get such a condescending post written about him telling him to shape the hell up.

Posted by: Iron Lungfish | Oct 31, 2005 8:42:49 AM

Neil, you are my favorite werewolf.

Posted by: Blar | Oct 31, 2005 10:18:43 AM

"It's fairly populist to recommend saying more about "growing poverty and inequality" in a morally charged way." (Neil, in the body of the article) Excellent stuff and attitude. I like it. Are we going to finally get a progressive populist of faith and principles to run in '08 and to reclaim America from '09 onwards?

Captain Toke, is jeering your recommendation of how to reform sex-education? Actually, this matter as well (just like economic populism) would be better off if dealt with in a moral tenor, instead of ground up between the parties. If you are able to see and appreciate a true moral commitment, even if opposed to yours, I invite you to read here. If, however, you are just hanging around to taunt and terrify people who have, by majority, proved irresponsible, certainly, but are still desperate human beings in need for help, good examples and right incentives, not of the political pillory, in that case may I courteously invite you to SHUT UP ?!

Posted by: Martin Bauer | Oct 31, 2005 1:42:25 PM

"Captain Toke, is jeering your recommendation of how to reform sex-education?"

No,
It means if you have a baby in your belly you want to kill, or if you just want have unprotected sex and not have to deal with the consequences of your actions, you better hurry up.

Posted by: Captain Toke | Oct 31, 2005 3:05:49 PM

Ah, now I see, you were just trying to be shrewd and helpful. Sorry, my name is Martin, I happen to just have no baby in my belly which I "want to kill", nor do I suppose that many of the others who posted here do. Why not turn to some women's magazine with your advice? There you will find the specimen of humans who steadily thirst for doing such things.

Posted by: Martin Bauer | Oct 31, 2005 5:46:16 PM

Martin, you asked:
"Are we going to finally get a progressive populist of faith and principles to run in '08 and to reclaim America from '09 onwards?"
Let me here suggest, as I did above, that John Edwards is the man you're looking for. I encourage you to support him if he runs (and he almost certainly will) in 2008.

Lungfish, I have to say that I don't see the problems with the Yglesias piece that you do. I see the dialectic like this: Sirota makes a bunch of charges (very poorly sourced and with few quotes -- I mean, go back and read "Debunking 'Centrism'.") Yglesias rightly points out that the quotes are often taken out of context, as I show in this post. Some of his "New Dem of the Week" comments don't prove what he wants them to prove, but they show that the reality is a lot more complicated than Sirota thinks. And Matt's conclusions, stated at the end of his piece, are small enough for his arguments to support them.

One other thing that probably should be pointed out is that Sirota's quotes that actually work against the DLC all come from 2002 or before. If the DLC warmed to populism, David Sirota would be the last to know.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Oct 31, 2005 9:14:57 PM

Neil, I pretty much liked John Edwards for some time last year, but then got baffled because he didn't seem to mark any accent during the campaign and even looked positively weak in his tv-debate with Cheney.

Please give me a clue what Edwards is up to doing now. Does he even contemplate a run in '08, he rarely gets even a scarce mention among the possibles. Well, maybe that's just the way we should support him. Surely, but, on the other hand,

there is a growing tide up people getting impressed by Al Gore and vowing that he has changed or gained experience in a decisive way since the 2000 debacle. Do you think (or are you een sure) these people are fooling themselves, or is there no real contradiction between supporting both, after all?

Posted by: Martin Bauer | Nov 1, 2005 2:52:44 AM

"I encourage you to support him if he runs (and he almost certainly will) in 2008." Oh bad, I didn't read your lines very well before answering back. Anyhow, HOW is he preparing for '08 right now. And what about Al Gore? Does Edwards do anything comparable to the background work Gore is said to do with CURRENT TV or of Howard Dean at the DNC? Just drop me a hint or two, please.

Posted by: Martin Bauer | Nov 1, 2005 5:06:20 AM

Right now he's gone to UNC to start an academic center on dealing with poverty. I'm pretty excited about the fact that he's talking with a bunch of smart sociologists about how to deal with these problems, and it shows up in some of the new ideas in his speeches (especially about helping poor people build assets). He's also going around the country and giving speeches to discuss poverty in America and encourage college students to do more volunteer work. I attended one of them, and got to as him some questions afterwards -- my report is here. When asked about whether he's running again, he just says that he's not thinking about that right now and he's just interested in going around and doing what he's doing. This is what somebody running for president probably should be saying at this point.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Nov 1, 2005 4:43:42 PM

As for Gore, I think he's given some excellent speeches that diagnose serious problems with our political culture. That's why a lot of liberals like him. But I don't see how he'll win over the swing voter groups that elections depend on. I've argued this at greater length here.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf | Nov 1, 2005 4:46:04 PM

Thank you, Neil, for your links. Yes, I guess, Edwards would really make an awesome president. Anyhow, your argument on Gore doesn’t fully convince me, I caught myself nodding at reading Justin Tiehen’s opinion, on that link you gave me to your own forum. Well, I’m German, maybe I’m just a bit too far away to guess what swing voters may warm up to in election year. I think, I’ll take favourably to both possibilities. Why not a Gore-Edwards ticket in '08, (- or let it be Edwards-Gore (smiley)) We certainly agree that both would be orders of magnitude better than being regaled with the spectacle of Hillary being bashed for an "ultra-liberal" profile while actually holding an agenda that would not even come close to better the lives of lower classes enough for them to survive the next Republican assault on White House.

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