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October 04, 2005

Godless, Orderly Heathens

Liesa notices a study on religion in industrialized democracies that finds something interesting:

[Paul] found that the most religious democracies exhibited substantially higher degrees of social dysfunction than societies with larger percentages of atheists and agnostics. Of the nations studied, the U.S. — which has by far the largest percentage of people who take the Bible literally and express absolute belief in God (and the lowest percentage of atheists and agnostics) — also has by far the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

This conclusion will come as no surprise to those who have long gnashed their teeth in frustration while listening to right-wing evangelical claims that secular liberals are weak on “values.” Paul’s study confirms globally what is already evident in the U.S.: When it comes to “values,” if you look at facts rather than mere rhetoric, the substantially more secular blue states routinely leave the Bible Belt red states in the dust.

All quite true. Not only are secular countries more socially sound than religious ones, but the so-called blue states have lower crime/std/divorce rates than the supposedly more spiritually grounded red states. This would, of course, all change if liberals just allowed prayer in schools or the ten commandments etched into homeroom blackboards, but they're pigheaded about that.

Of course, much of this is very tough to accurately assess. Income matters here, as does inequality, wealth, race, and a variety of other markers that correlate with religiosity. There's little to no evidence that religion is to blame for social dysfunction or crime, but nor is there any truth in the oft-posited argument that it stops it. All of which brings us down to the nub of the debate -- this really is, as the right claims, about values. It's not about public policy, not about societal outcomes. This is total ephemera, a rock 'em sock 'em robots pitting belief systems and socio-spiritual structures against each other. What that means, though, is that it should be argued there. Wanting religion in the public realm is a perfectly defensible viewpoint, but justifying that by arguing it'll improve the world and heal societal ills is, well, bearing false witness.

Update: As some have pointed out, what this study basically shows is that the US is more dysfunctional than Europe. True 'nuff. And indeed, crime and so forth are much more heavily correlated with things like racial tensions, economic inequality, and similar factors. It's nevertheless true though that religion is anything but a miracle cure for societal ills, whatever their cause. Neither the godliness of America nor the piousness of the South save either from serious rates of societal dysfunction. As such, the conclusion stands, but I should make clear that it's not the ostensible point of the study.

October 4, 2005 in Religion | Permalink

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Comments

Wanting religion in the public realm is a perfectly defensible viewpoint, but justifying that by arguing it'll improve the world and heal societal ills is, well, bearing false witness.

Hm, I don't think the study proves even that. (One could argue that the regions in question would be even worse without religion, or that religious people in the blue states are responsible for the lack of crime while seculars in the red states do all the bad stuff.)

In fact, I think the only thing it proves is that largely secular countries aren't going to hell in a handbasket. Which is useful. But all in all it's a pretty non-informative study. Pharyngula did a post a few weeks ago picking this apart with his commenters.

Posted by: Brad Plumer | Oct 4, 2005 4:16:38 PM

Dunno. The sheer fact that so many secular areas are far improved over religious ones, when added with the blue state/red state stats, is evidence enough for me to believe that adding religion into a region doesn't have nearly the curative affects some claim. When it's talked about as a solution, it's not spoken of as an incremental stopgap, but as a magical, miracle-working addition -- quite predictably, considering its nature. What this study proves is that it isn't so, and that should, though it likely won't, have implications for the wider debate.

Posted by: Ezra | Oct 4, 2005 4:24:10 PM

Well! No wonder the secular left has a war against religion(except for Islam).

Posted by: Fred Jones | Oct 4, 2005 4:31:20 PM

Oh, I gotcha. Well, okay, it certainly pokes a whole in that (rather grand) claim, although I don't know anyone who makes it except people who aren't susceptible to data in the first place.

Posted by: Brad Plumer | Oct 4, 2005 4:35:10 PM

Yes, but it also depnds a lot on what your religion teaches you and how you act on it. There's a lot of socialism implicit in Christianity. And beyond that, if there's a real sense of community provided by church, then that's a better way to live, a more moral way. Now it's true that you can have community without a belief in God, but I'm inclined to see organized religion as being about finding community and finding the divine in the experience of community....Anyway.

And you know, there are religious people in blue states.

Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Oct 4, 2005 6:12:29 PM

Man, I'm tired of this "study." But it has been shown to be shoddy work with bullshit conclusions in many other places, so I won't go into that here.

But I will say that the myth - yes, myth - of the blue state/red state divide being one of religion as well as politics is one that the GOP desperately wants us all to believe. Blue staters may be differently religious than red staters, but I believe that the difference in the number of actually non-religious people across the blue/red divide is insignificant as a cultural marker.

Even ignoring the many different religions that are widely practiced in the US, there is a huge variance in the types of Christianity one finds in the red states versus the blue states. Of more importance is the way in which social conservatives and big business have teamed up to concentrate resources in the hands of a very few. The use of religion to distract people from the truth is but one weapon in their arsenal, and we would be wise to not forget that.

Posted by: Stephen | Oct 4, 2005 6:27:20 PM

How quickly we forget that the greatest criminal states of the 20th century were secular or athiestic. It wasn't religion that inspired the Soviet Gulags. Humanism was the guiding philosophy behind Hitler's National Socialism and the genocide of WWII. Even in the 21st century the human rights oppression of China, North Korea, and Cuba can be ranked against Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Liberal fear of religion is not entirely wrong, but its skepticism is misplaced.

Posted by: Matt | Oct 4, 2005 11:58:34 PM

Humanism was the guiding philosophy behind Hitler's National Socialism and the genocide of WWII.

I guess those speeches where Hitler mentions Christianity and Christ are just code words for forms of humanism.

Posted by: The Dark Avenger | Oct 5, 2005 5:07:01 AM

I guess those speeches where Hitler mentions Christianity and Christ are just code words for forms of humanism.

Apparently, Hitler also believed in separation of church and state.


Posted by: Fred Jones | Oct 5, 2005 8:57:05 AM

Liberal fear of religion is not entirely wrong, but its skepticism is misplaced.

Crusades, jihads, witchburnings, scarlet letters, and all other forms of hate also come from religion. My skepticism comes from modern day examples of hate and want from the other side to enshrine religious law as the law of the land. I've even seen firsthand the intolerance that is the current Catholic church and I can't shake the thought. True acceptance only comes in one form. Telling someone you love them, while thinking deep down that they're flaws would just be cured by coverting is not one of them.

Posted by: Adrock | Oct 5, 2005 11:45:19 AM

Apparently, Hitler also believed in separation of church and state.

Let's see, Hitler took power in 1933 and somehow in less than six years managed to get the German (and Austrian) people to cast aside 1000 years of Christianity for his "humanistic" philosophy. All that anti-semitism must have caught on like bird flu in 1936 cause we know the Catholic church wouldn't have encouraged it.

Posted by: Col Bat Guano | Oct 6, 2005 12:19:07 PM

So Adrock,
Howm any hospitals and orphanages were founded by athiests? Most of the ideals of "how the world should be" held by the left and the right have a religious origin somewhere. I am glad you truly accept devout Catholics and Religious folks. Be a shame if you were playing the Religious Person = Hatemonger game (about as good as the Homosexual = Child Molester game). People who want to enshrine athiesm as the one religious choice that is the source of all that is wonderful and good are even more annoying than people who want to put the 10 commandments in every Classroom (you can't teach my kids to read and you want to teach them morals, I'll pass).

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