Ezra Klein: Accountability Schmaccountability

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June 21, 2005

Accountability Schmaccountability

Shakes here...

As an appropriate follow-up to Durbin’s apology for calling out the heinous nature of abuses going on at Gitmo, the White House has rejected the proposed creation of an independent commission to investigate abuses of detainees held at Gitmo and elsewhere.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the Pentagon has launched 10 major investigations into allegations of abuse, and that system was working well. “People are being held to account," he said. "And we think that's the way to go about this."

Oh yeah—like who? Lynndie England? Swell.

Democrats on Capitol Hill have increasingly called for an independent commission to look into detainee abuses. On Tuesday, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said a commission is crucial to answering questions about the atmosphere that permitted abuses, troop training and the length of detentions at Guantanamo.

"These questions are important because the safety of our country depends on our reputation and how we are viewed, especially in the Muslim world," she said.

Silly Nancy Pelosi. Apparently, she doesn’t know that it’s not the mistreatment of prisoners that undermines our reputation; it’s the reporting of that mistreatment. It’s not pissing on the Qu’ran; it’s announcing that Qu’rans have been pissed on.

And in case there’s any more confusion, let me also clarify that even if you’re one of the jagoff blowhards who lambastes anyone who has the audacity to suggest that perhaps the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo et. al. might be losing us the PR war in Iraq, you still have absolutely no responsibility not to make a mockery of it. Especially if it makes ya a few bucks.

-- Shakespeare's Sister

June 21, 2005 | Permalink

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» Accountability? They Can't Even Spell it! from In Search Of Utopia
As an appropriate follow-up to Durbin’s apology for calling out the heinous nature of abuses going on at Gitmo, the White House has rejected the proposed creation of an independent commission to investigate abuses of detainees held at Gitmo and... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 21, 2005 11:14:53 PM

» Accountability? They Can't Even Spell it! from In Search Of Utopia
As an appropriate follow-up to Durbin's apology for calling out the heinous nature of abuses going on at Gitmo, the White House has rejected the proposed creation of an independent commission to investigate abuses of detainees held at Gitmo and... [Read More]

Tracked on Jun 22, 2005 12:13:13 AM

Comments

------"Apparently, she doesn’t know that it’s not the mistreatment of prisoners that undermines our reputation; it’s the reporting of that mistreatment."

Is it OK to report mistreatment without proof? Please point out any proof of torture at gitmo that has been put forward.

Keep in mind the FBI agent mentioned in Durbin's speech was not called forward to testify about torture. If that agent had witnessed torture, Durbin wouldn't have apologized, he would have brought the agent in front of the senate to testify.

-------"It’s not pissing on the Qu’ran; it’s announcing that Qu’rans have been pissed on."

Thank you for making my point. It is bad enough to criticize your service men and women during wartime with unsubstanciated charges, but when you use made up evidence(NewsWeek's Koran abuse story), it is worse.

I don't understand why anyone would want make unsubstanciated charges against their own military during a war. If there is credible proof with the allegation, put it forward, otherwise keep the allegation out of the papers till you got proof. That is what a responsible leader would do.

We are at war. Repeated accusations, with no proof, against the US service people at gitmo hurts our war efforts. Durbin's comments were all over Al Jazeera for the last week. When US politician after US politician comes out and claims abuse at gitmo (with absolutely no conclusive proof, only unsubstanciated allegations), the enemy can use that. If young arabs or Muslims see that so many US politicians claim we are currently torturing people at gitmo, then it must be true(I mean the Americans themselves say it). They don't know that it is allegations without proof.

Again, if anyone has PROOF of torture at gitmo, please put it forward(be specific and provide links).

Any US congressman is free to visit gitmo at a moments notice. It would be responsible of a politician to visit gitmo(which they can do at taxpayer expense at any time), it would be responsible to visit before passing judgement on the people at gitmo.

I think Rush is trying to bring this issue to the forefront. Why would the right bring attention to an issue that would hurt them? Rush is just using the fact that liberals brought this issue up, there is nothing to it(which makes the libs look foolish), as a matter of fact, it brings attention to the way we DO treat gitmo detainees, and Rush and the conservatives will profit from it.

I think Durbin's apology was appropriate and it showed class.

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 21, 2005 9:33:43 PM

A) I never said anything about torture.

B) These are not unsubstantiated charges. See the statement released by US Southern Command, which is in charge of Gitmo.

Posted by: Shakespeare's Sister | Jun 21, 2005 10:54:10 PM

There were of five confirmed incidences in your 'substanciated charges'. They involve water or urine getting on a Koran, stepping on a Koran, kicking a koran, and writing in a Koran. Three of the incidences could have been or were found to be accidents, and one of the 'substanciated charges', it was found in the link above, could have just as easily been done by the detainee(writing in the Koran), there was just the allegation of the detainee. One civilian interogater was fired and a soldier was reprimanded and kept away from detainees after the incident.

Those are some explosive charges.

What are these guys at gitmo for? Doesn't their handbook teach them to accuse their captors of abuse?

Do you think their religious and personal rights would be as well protected at any federal or state prison?

That link doesn't mention the report that a detainee at gitmo was tearing up his own Koran and throwing the pages into his toilet so he could make it overflow.

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 21, 2005 11:21:47 PM

Durbin's original comment was candid and spot-on: Anyone who read various accounts of interrogation methods would think they were the practices of a tyrant. His apology is pathetic.

The Democrat = spineless stereotype is never going to go away, because it happens to be true. They're going to be fucked in '08, when their left wing walks away. They're going to go the way of the Whigs.

Posted by: sglover | Jun 22, 2005 10:09:50 AM

Durbin said:

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime--Pol Pot or others--that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

Is there an actually false statement in there? Isn't that not exactly summing up what happened? Durbin was brought to tears when he said he didn't mean to call our brave, young American soldiers Nazis. BUT THATS NOT WHAT YOU WERE DOING, SENATOR! You were saying the worst behavior our Americans have shown in this war on terror is reminiscient of tolitarian regimes. And you were making that comparison to highlight that Americans should be, and are, better than that. Now you've cowered in the face of unsubstantiated criticism.

My god, what is wrong with my party? I agree any and all Nazi references should be stricken from the public playbook of debate (as I believe someone from Slate recently argued) because it dumbs down the discussion. But highlighting prisoner abuses by pointing to undemocratic regimes that do the same thing is exactly what needs to be done. Nice work, Dick.

Posted by: Adrock | Jun 22, 2005 12:10:12 PM

It will be interesting to see how the case of Sean Baker, an MP at Guantánamo, works out (he was ordered, or some say "volunteered", to pose as a prisoner and examine interrogation techniques there - he is currently suing the Pentagon for his own mistreatment). It will be interesting to see how people like Rush Limbaugh and thus the Captain Toke's of the world will jump to discredit Baker and take a temporary sabbatical from their "honor the men in uniform" schtick. That is, if Baker's case isn't submerged into the lower realms of media exposure.
In any case, I'd bet that Baker doesn't buckle like Durbin did.

Posted by: sprocket | Jun 22, 2005 1:23:48 PM

------"Is there an actually false statement in there?"

"The actions of Robert Byrd (D,WV)are comparable to those of Adolf Hitler."

------"Is there an actually false statement in there?"

They are both leaders of their respective political parties, both had belonged to racist organizations, both have succeeded in denying minorities their basic human rights and they both have showed racist tendencies.

"If I told you about the actions of this man (joining a racist organization, trying to thwart the civil rights of minorities, etc.) and didn't tell you it was a US senator, you would think it was Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, or Pol Pot. But no, I am sad to say, these are the actions of a United States Senator."

Is that a fair comparison? It is at least a more apt comparison than comparing the actions of our service people to those of the Nazis, etc.

Do you understand NOW why Durbin's comparison was wrong?

------"His apology is pathetic"

You are right sglover, cuz he did not apologize to those he hurt most, our service men and women at gitmo.

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 22, 2005 4:15:28 PM

Is it OK to report mistreatment without proof? Please point out any proof of torture at gitmo that has been put forward.

Dunno about Guantanomo, but there were some rather ugly photos from Abu Ghraib, that were seen pretty much everywhere on the fucking planet. Do you really think your pathetic hair-splitting works, after that?!?!?

You are right sglover, cuz he did not apologize to those he hurt most, our service men and women at gitmo.

All I can say is, Wow. Yours is the most flagrantly disingenuous statement I've run across this week.

Before he rolled over, Durbin merely said that anyone who read specific, documented accounts of the treatment of some of the prisoners, without knowing the nationalities involved, would find it hard to distinguish from historic accounts of secret police behavior. Consider it a kind of torturer's Turing test. In a way it's really too bad that the accounts are out in the open, because I think we could have great fun with them. I'd love to see war apologists read them, splutter about the barbarity of the enemy du jour, and then find out that they were denouncing American practices. Of course, if I know my right-wing shills, it'd take less than a heartbeat for them to say that it wasn't really so barbaric, that it's all liberal bias, etc. If you have an atom if intellectual integrity you'll admit that this is surely how it would play out. But I won't be holding my breath......

Oh, and by the way, if you're really so concerned about the folks in uniform -- have you served? If not, do you have any serious plans to enlist? If the answer to either is 'yes', OK. But if it's the usual Republican answer (i.e., 'no') -- shut up and fuck off.

Posted by: sglover | Jun 22, 2005 5:07:59 PM

------"Dunno about Guantanomo, but there were some rather ugly photos from Abu Ghraib,"

Thank you for illistratrating a good point. Because abuses were found at Abu Graib (which was discovered and disclosed to the American people by the Pentagon) the left thinks there has to be abuses at gitmo, cuz the military is the military, everywhere. The left KNOWS they are torturing people.

------"Dunno about Guantanomo,"

No one knows about gitmo, but that doesn't stop the left from hurling accusations. Cuz if it happened at Abu Graib, it is happening at gitmo (the military is the military everywhere). What is worse is that it is in a time of war. If you have proof, put the evidence forward, otherwise keep it to your self. Don't help the enemy recruit.

I got news for you, there is no abuse going on at gitmo.

If there was proof of abuses, any legitimate, conclusive proof, the Democratic congressmen would have trotted witnesses in front of the senate to testify, if their was any pictures or documents (that could prove abuse), they would be all over the media, just like Abu Graib. There is no smoking gun.

Compare gitmo to a US federal prison or a state prison. Do you think the detainees at gitmo would be better off in a state or federal prison? They are treated better than US citizens. Do these terrorists deserve to be treated better than Amercan citizens?

Oh, I accept Durbin's apology, it could have been better, but he acknowledged he screwed up, and he was sorry.

------"do you have any serious plans to enlist?"

I couldn't pass the drug test. But as soon as they take pot smoking captains, I'll be first in line.

Until then, I'll continue to smoke doobies and correct(in some cases enlighten), misguided, uninformed liberals like you for Uncle Sam.

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 22, 2005 5:48:49 PM

I couldn't pass the drug test.

Recruiting officers have been recorded on hidden camera helping young recruits "pass" drug tests lately, so maybe you are in luck. You know, if you are serious about actually doing anything other than getting stoned.

Posted by: sprocket | Jun 22, 2005 6:47:40 PM

------"if you are serious about actually doing anything other than getting stoned.'

AND correct or even enlighten misguided liberals. You know sprocket, show you the error of your ways. If I can get one liberal kool-aid drinker to think with logic and reason, If I can save one soul from the vile, bitter hatred of today's liberalism(Moore, Franken, Dean, Kennedy liberalism), then it is all worth it.

'Yes-I-Cannibus'

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 22, 2005 7:29:11 PM

I'll tell you what Toke - if they ever call me back up for service, I'll send them to you. You are my surrogate. I'll point out your wise posts here and they'll see that you know much, much more about the military and the war than I do, and you can finally serve your country's best interest in a less pussified way than just trolling a website message board. Get ready, your chance might just happen.

Posted by: sprocket | Jun 22, 2005 8:03:46 PM

Oh, must must be one of them 'anti-military' military guys. There are a lot of you on these liberal message boards. I had no idea there were so many 'anti-military' military people out there.

I guess since you were in the military, you know that all US military torture there prisoners(except for the 'anti-military' military people like you). Why else would you allow mainly liberal Democratic congressmen to hurl unfounded allegations at your bretheren currently serving. It is cuz you were in the military, and you know that most the guys in the military joined cuz they want to kill, they want to go to battle(except you and the other 'anti-military' military people out there). All they are thugs with buzzcuts. They deserved to be compared with Nazis. They enjoy torturing and killing those 'brown people'.

It is a good thing we got you liberal 'anti-military' military people to let us know how it really is in that sadistic fraternity we call the US military.

Semper Fi!

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 22, 2005 9:01:28 PM

"Correcting liberals with one hand wrapped around a doobie, just to make it fair.'

Posted by: Captain Toke | Jun 22, 2005 10:49:02 PM

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